Protective clothing for bio/chemical/nuke events

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angie_nrs

angie_nrs

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I have been giving this subject a lot of thought lately I guess due to this recent thread:
https://www.homesteadingforum.org/threads/what-nuke-preps-do-you-keep-on-hand.2008/

In the past when I have had to don a suit for work, I knew what the threat was that I was trying to protect myself against. That is the key to choosing the right protective gear. But, what if you don't really know what you are trying to protect yourself against? I would think that even with some sort of biological threat, it could be a while before you knew exactly what you were trying to protect yourself against. What then?

In a biological situation, not only are you trying to protect yourself, but many times you are trying to prevent cross contamination to others as well, so you need to know how to don a protective suit and how to remove and dispose of it. Many times that can be trickier than donning a suit. See the youtube video by prepper nurse in the first link below. She mentions many realistic issues to consider when using suits as well.

Also, I was thinking that I really don't have a ton of knowledge about how to protect myself from some specific threats like a nuke event or a chemical event. There's so many options as far as protective suits and masks....how do you determine exactly which one to use? I'm trying to get it all figured out now so that IF an event occurred I wouldn't be wasting valuable time trying to decipher which suit or mask to use. I am keeping a list next to my gear so that in an emergency, I'd have easy acess to that information. Although, now I'm not sure I'm adequately covered for all these events.:confused:

I just broke down and bought some military style israli masks and filters which wasn't something I gave a whole lot of thought to before, even though that's the picture MSM always posts of those "prepper type people". I think one thing that I learned in my research was that if you needed these masks, all it does is to give you TIME. It can give you a little extra time to evacuate the area if possible to get to safety. These masks only work if there is available oxygen in the area you are in since it is a filter, not an air source. I liken it to a snorkel....it will give you breathable air in an unbreathable environment but it has limits. Whereas a self conatined unit (like what firefighters wear) with an O2 tank will allow you to breathe where there is no oxygen present otherwise....just like a SCUBA diver. Again, that unit clearly has it's limits and it can only give you a little time. I also know that these israli masks are notorius for not fitting properly. In bootcamp (back in the day), my understanding is that you get one of these masks and chem suits before entering the gas chamber and everyone comes out of there coughing, gasping for breath, with nose, eyes and mouth running with fluids. These are people who know a chemical attack is coming, and still, these masks fail them.

I found some useful links as I was giving some consideration to this subject:

http://www.happypreppers.com/chemical-suit.html
https://www.remm.nlm.gov/respiratory_ppe.htm
https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=485110

There are a lot of sub-links within the above links to keep anyone busy for a looooong time.

I have concluded that in a situation where these suits/masks are necessary, it's likely that what I have won't be very adequate. It might give me a small amount of time, but long term, it likely won't do me a whole lot of good. I guess I will consider it just another tool in my box that I hopefully will never have to use. Strangely, I still feel a little better knowing I have something as opposed to having nothing.
 
@angie_nrs I think the reason that they come out of the gas chamber in basic training choking is that they make you take the mask off and say your name, rank and serial number. Not because the equipment failed. In the other thread I posted links to US military equipment. The Israeli masks are good from what I have read but for my family everyone has a US military m80 mask and a number of brand new filters in sealed cans. (These filters will fir your Israeli mask too. All NATO masks use the same filter thread pitch.) From what I have read these US filters are good for one hour but that always depends on how much filtration they have to do. Each m80 mask that I have has both the green and black rubber mask which is actually like 2 masks in one. Each m80 mask also has the drinking straw attachment and a canteen with the fitting on top so family members can drink fluids while wearing their masks. For Nuclear/Chem use I will stay with the military chem suits. They are camo and look like a regular field jacket and pants but are charcoal lined. These can be bought in vacuum sealed packages that are brand new for an affordable price. We each also have the rubber chemical gloves and over boots. All fits in a nice small backpack with each family member's initials on it.
 
There is an old saying about, perfect being the enemy of good. There are chemicals out there where if the tiniest droplet gets on your skin you will die. I'm not prepared for an attack like that. That type of agent is very dangerous for your own troops so it is seldom used. Something like sarin might be used in a subway or other confined space but I'm not walking around in a rubber suit forever. They would likely put me in a rubber room. If I think it is high enough risk that I need a suit like that, I'm not going. When I was working on the ambulance they had training that covered every conceivable radiological or chemical scene. "It's not my job."

I have N-95 masks, military surplus masks with new filters, Tyvek coveralls, latex gloves, and eyewear. I figure that I'm fine for radiation, volcanic ash, and epidemic. I guess that if a couple of surplus chemical suits begged me for a good home I might relent but it is not something that I'm looking for.
 
As far as radiation goes fallout is the only "wide spread" danger and anything with a tight weave can prevent it from getting on your skin. Most any particulate mask will stop you from inhaling it.
It would be best to stay sheltered for the two weeks that fallout is dangerous. You will need to shave of the top two inches of topsoil and get rid of any plants that were growing in it. A plastic garbage bag inside a plastic trash bag is all you need to get it stored safely. You will need a full face mask and a cold shower with soap after and it should be done when the wind is calm and away from your living and planting area.
Biological and chemical is tougher. Some are contact carriers and others are airborne. Chemicals are able to penetrate all mucous membranes and skin as well as being inhaled or ingested. Biological can sometimes be stopped by mucous membranes or your skin while others will penetrate the skin. The biggest problem with these two is knowing when protection is needed. By the time you smell apple blossoms you have already inhaled enough ZX to kill you and it will in a matter of minutes. Saran and Anthrax are tasteless and odorless - depending on the carrier they are mixed with - so by the time you know there is a problem it is too late. If you are going to wear protection you need multiple suits that can be disposed of after use - unless you have the equipment to clean them.
Staying sheltered and away from others is really the best you can do practically. I could be wrong here, I am sure those with more medical knowledge will speak up.
 
I am have been an instructor on such matters both in the civilian world and at a major military CBRN training facility (largest in the US) .. but I dont feel like typing a lot..

This article is one of the few that is any good, lease read it if u have an interest in this subject.
https://www.businessinsider.de/surv...go-inside-shelter-no-windows-2018-1?r=US&IR=T

Keep in mind most pics u remember from Nuke explosion effects were distances under a mile of the explosion...

People envision this overwhelming power because of a) the movies and b) pics form Hiroshima/Nagasaki.. but those two towns had the majority of houses made pressed cardboard.. modem buildings kept standing... a bridge a mere 100 yards form ground zero kept standing and was usable..

I guess what I am trying to say is this.Even in a moderate exchange say 200 nukes landing in the US.. chances are extremely good you are too far away from any explosion to kill you or injure you... even if you live "close" to what you think might be a target.... nuclear weapons effects diminish with the square root of distance.. in other words 4 miles away is a quarter of the effects as 2 miles away..
... even fallout is not as likely to hit you..as many seem to think ... you need to be very unlucky as many factors need to come together (time, distance, weather) for it to "land" on your locality in a quantity to do any harm at all.

What WILL affect you in a nuclear exchange for certain...; is the total collapse of the grid and the food and medical network..
And isnt that what we prep for anyway?
 
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JAC said:
@angie_nrs I think the reason that they come out of the gas chamber in basic training choking is that they make you take the mask off and say your name, rank and serial number. Not because the equipment failed. In the other thread I posted links to US military equipment. The Israeli masks are good from what I have read but for my family everyone has a US military m80 mask and a number of brand new filters in sealed cans. (These filters will fir your Israeli mask too. All NATO masks use the same filter thread pitch.) From what I have read these US filters are good for one hour but that always depends on how much filtration they have to do. Each m80 mask that I have has both the green and black rubber mask which is actually like 2 masks in one. Each m80 mask also has the drinking straw attachment and a canteen with the fitting on top so family members can drink fluids while wearing their masks. For Nuclear/Chem use I will stay with the military chem suits. They are camo and look like a regular field jacket and pants but are charcoal lined. These can be bought in vacuum sealed packages that are brand new for an affordable price. We each also have the rubber chemical gloves and over boots. All fits in a nice small backpack with each family member's initials on it.
Click to expand...

The link you provided says the item is no longer listed. What is the difference between the M80 mask and the israili mask?
 
angie_nrs said:
What is the difference between the M80 mask and the israili mask?
Click to expand...
Different brand. Both are government masks approved for their military. They come in different sizes and fit is more important, to me, than model.
 
I have recently come into ownership of four, Immersion Suits. My original plan was to scatter them at different survival cache sites, thinking they would be quick "Temporary" emergence shelter, to help stay alive while unpacking survival camps, and getting a fire started. But reading this thread they might serve other applications.

"Caribou".......you might consider contacting "Nova Rafting" or "Denali Rafting" They have to cycle these suits, as they have a dated useful life for the intended "Official" application.
 
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Thanks VP! That is a great and original idea. An immersion suit would be an excellent shelter, from cold, wet, and some chemicals. For those who don't know, an immersion suit is made for you to get into fully clothed. It is waterproof and designed for survival of a sinking boat in cold water.
 
The four I just got were laying near a dumpster.........guess someone thought somebody might find a use for them. Actually......my very first though when I noticed them, was I'll cut them up and make warm & waterproof pads to sit on while hunting.
 
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Once or twice a year take them out of their bags, let them air out, then refold them differently. Cracks will develop if you always refold them in the same place. Folding them differently will spread the stress out and lengthen the life of your suit. That is such a great find.
 
I really feel a bit guilty for not having participated in this thread in a meaningful way since PPE selection (personal protective equipment) is one of the areas I have done (among other things) professionally for a high end DOD CBRN response team for some years.

But I hate writing long posts.. especially a field like this were I know you need the basic answers.... but I have to write 3 times as much to keep the sharpshooting at bay...

Also because I understand this subject so well ( I teach it) I feel preppers tend to significantly overestimate the importance of CBRN for a prepper.
Prep for a grid down is my best advice if you are prepping for a nuke attack.
As for chemical attacks they take a LOT of material to create dangerous condtions in more than very limited areas..
Even saturating a single avg sized county w/ chemical or biological weapon is beyond the capability of even most ( perhaps all) nation state militaries..
In the cold war when we had forests of soviet artillery tubes .. but those dont really exist in those numbers anymore..

If u worry Chem.. then worry about being close to a plant and uncooled tanks (eventually) bursting in a grid down (threat 1-3 miles)
If u worry about Bio, worry about a Flu pandemic ( not anthrax or ebola)
If u worry about Nuke, worry about a grid down

....if someone asks a specific question that is easily answered with a short answer like yes or no please ask.
I have literally helped write a manual on these subjects and I teach classes on this. And not the basic Army classes "how to use a M256A1", "how to don your mask" or anything like that.
(Even though I can of course help with that)
 
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It is a broad subject that seems difficult to get a firm handle on. I have been thinking about getting masks for many years and finally just got a couple because I was overwhelmed with questions but felt that having something is better than nothing. I know that's the wrong reason to buy something, but it has been a gaping hole in my preparedness that was really starting to make me uncomfortable.

For the flu, I believe a basic N95 mask would suffice. When I worked in the hospital, we never wore anything more than that even when caring for patients in TB isolation. I do have a good supply of those masks. But I have used them in other situations (while wearing safety glasses) like while putting up insulation and spreading DE outdoors. As far as anthrax and ebola......I never had to deal with those situations. I believe both of those would require a respirator of some sort, no? From what I can tell, those helping with ebola are not wearing respirators. It looks like some are wearing N95 masks with facial shields, but it's just what I have observed from video supposedly taken in Africa.

The main situation in which I think the israili masks could be used would be in a smokey situation such as a fire in close proximity causing a smokey fog. Perhaps just a few extra minutes would be needed in order to safely evacuate. Although, I realize they would be useless in thick smoke since the oxygen source would be absent. Hubs has a respirator that he uses when he paints indoors. I don't know if that would also suffice in that situation? I believe the israili masks and paint respirators are close to the same thing, although the israili masks allow for drinking so would be considered a longer term type of mask?

In a nuke type situation, I still am unclear when that mask would be useful. How would I know when particles were in the air? When would I know when I could take it off? Would a mask be useless without a geiger counter? When would I know that the filter needed to be changed? Would I need to wear it indoors?

I like to have things on hand that can be used in more than one situation. I'm just trying to come up with situations in which various masks could be used.
 
Caribou said:
Once or twice a year take them out of their bags, let them air out, then refold them differently. Cracks will develop if you always refold them in the same place. Folding them differently will spread the stress out and lengthen the life of your suit. That is such a great find.
Click to expand...

Car, Is that the same as a wet suit?
 
BlueZ said:
I really feel a bit guilty for not having participated in this thread in a meaningful way since PPE selection (personal protective equipment) is one of the areas I have done (among other things) professionally for a high end DOD CBRN response team for some years.

But I hate writing long posts.. especially a field like this were I know you need the basic answers.... but I have to write 3 times as much to keep the sharpshooting at bay...

Also because I understand this subject so well ( I teach it) I feel preppers tend to significantly overestimate the importance of CBRN for a prepper.
Prep for a grid down is my best advice if you are prepping for a nuke attack.
As for chemical attacks they take a LOT of material to create dangerous condtions in more than very limited areas..
Even saturating a single avg sized county w/ chemical or biological weapon is beyond the capability of even most ( perhaps all) nation state militaries..
In the cold war when we had forests of soviet artillery tubes .. but those dont really exist in those numbers anymore..

If u worry Chem.. then worry about being close to a plant and uncooled tanks (eventually) bursting in a grid down (threat 1-3 miles)
If u worry about Bio, worry about a Flu pandemic ( not anthrax or ebola)
If u worry about Nuke, worry about a grid down

....if someone asks a specific question that is easily answered with a short answer like yes or no please ask.
I have literally helped write a manual on these subjects and I teach classes on this. And not the basic Army classes "how to use a M256A1", "how to don your mask" or anything like that.
(Even though I can of course help with that)
Click to expand...


And if they poison the water with bio chems. I hear a few years ago some questionable people were checking out the mouth of our springs aka aquifer.
Will a .5 filter that guards against Gardia,Cysts etc help or not? We do have a little water in zyler bags boxes put up.
 
Meerkat said:
Car, Is that the same as a wet suit?
Click to expand...
Not really though it is also made of rubber. There are two types. The first is referred as a work suit and is basically a set of rubber coveralls. The second is a survival suit. You remember those bunny suits you used to put your kids in at night with the feet and hood built in, kinda like that. You kick off your shoes, crawl in fully dressed, and sip it up. You can survive for quite awhile in very clod water in one of these.
 
angie_nrs said:
For the flu, a basic N95 mask would suffice. When I worked in the hospital, we never wore anything more than that even when caring for patients in TB isolation. I do have a good supply of those masks. But I have used them in other situations (while wearing safety glasses) like while putting up insulation and spreading DE outdoors. As far as anthrax and ebola......I never had to deal with those situations. I believe both of those would require a respirator of some sort, no? From what I can tell, those helping with ebola are not wearing respirators. It looks like some are wearing N95 masks with facial shields, but it's just what I have observed from video supposedly taken in Africa.
Click to expand...

Angie,
The flu is droplet isolation, meaning the particle is larger than 5 microns and will not float in the air. For flu, a surgical/procedural mask is adequate protection. (no sense using the much more expensive N-95- save it for airborne isolation situations!) For anthrax, theoretically only standard precautions are needed because anthrax is not transmitted from human to human (although I would still wear a procedural mask!). As for Ebola, at least an N-95 mask should be worn. Although the CDC says Ebola is not spread via the airborne route (meaning small particles less than 5 microns which can float on the air for hours), I have read a number of studies that contradicts this. In my hospital, anyone who has to deal with Ebola will wear a PAPR (powered air purifying respirator).
I am attaching a guide I created for my organization on bioweapons, including a lot of other information that I hope folks may find helpful.

An important caveat - for a mask to be effective it has to fit correctly. When you put on a surgical mask, be sure to pull it down below your chin and make sure there are no big gaps at the side!
 

Attachments

  • bioterrorism.pdf
    436 KB · Views: 34
Caribou said:
Not really though it is also made of rubber. There are two types. The first is referred as a work suit and is basically a set of rubber coveralls. The second is a survival suit. You remember those bunny suits you used to put your kids in at night with the feet and hood built in, kinda like that. You kick off your shoes, crawl in fully dressed, and sip it up. You can survive for quite awhile in very clod water in one of these.
Click to expand...

Ok thanks for clearing that up Car.
 
angie_nrs said:
For the flu, I believe a basic N95 mask would suffice. When I worked in the hospital, we never wore anything more than that even when caring for patients in TB isolation. I do have a good supply of those masks. But I have used them in other situations (while wearing safety glasses) like while putting up insulation and spreading DE outdoors. As far as anthrax and ebola......I never had to deal with those situations. I believe both of those would require a respirator of some sort, no? From what I can tell, those helping with ebola are not wearing respirators. It looks like some are wearing N95 masks with facial shields, but it's just what I have observed from video supposedly taken in Africa.

A military style mask is overkill for 99% of situations a prepper might face. Yes it works well against all Bio agents ( all military masks have a HEPA component in addition to charcoal component and its this HEPA that takes care of Bio)
The problem with military masks is because they are so overdesigned ( which is great when you are the target of a nation state chemical artillery barrage) but as a result they reduce your situational awareness tremendously... also they create a lot of resistance to breathing which you will notice when you try to run with them on.
The civilian hospital style masks are so much better in this respect and tons cheaper. A paper mask over nose/mouth to reduce the threat from droplets and a pair of goggles (to reduce the threat from droplets AND the threat from you touching your eye are which is a HUGE threat as people do it ALL the time)

The main situation in which I think the israili masks could be used would be in a smokey situation such as a fire in close proximity causing a smokey fog. Perhaps just a few extra minutes would be needed in order to safely evacuate. Although, I realize they would be useless in thick smoke since the oxygen source would be absent. Hubs has a respirator that he uses when he paints indoors. I don't know if that would also suffice in that situation? I believe the israili masks and paint respirators are close to the same thing, although the israili masks allow for drinking so would be considered a longer term type of mask?

The "Israeli masks are your basic military masks.. as such they will outperform painters masks by a tremendous margin.. then again painters mask generally lack the HEPA component of a mil mask so they are not as good against Bio... but again Bio and paper masks are generally sufficient against most Bio threats... the people that got sick despite wearing them were providers who interacted with patients ( and their blood, feces and sputum again and again and again... eventually the law of averages catches up with you).... But as a prepper making a run into town during a pandemic to plunder gas out of abandoned cars .. or get into your still open bank to open your lockbox of silver coins..(or whatever mission) will be quite well protected while have greater field of vision and less cardio burden on them

In a nuke type situation, I still am unclear when that mask would be useful. How would I know when particles were in the air? When would I know when I could take it off? Would a mask be useless without a geiger counter? When would I know that the filter needed to be changed? Would I need to wear it indoors?

The nuke threat applies in these specific case: a) you are in the town that got hit.. lots of radioactive dust and activation products are around.. as long as you are not too close to ground zero you could still be ok as long as u get out quickly and avoid breathing dust and fumes.. this is one of the few situations where I would prefer a mil mask of a hospital mask but in a pinch ANY mask can help tons even wet shirts thrown over your face b) You are in a fallout area... unless you are lookign at thousands of warheads on the US this will not be a common occurrence... for fall out to hit you a lot of things have to come together depending on the meterology when the device goes off.. You have to be the correct direction from the device (remember its a 360 .. it could go in any direction not necessarily yours)... you have to be at a distance thats close enough the particles havent travel for days ( they lose a LOT of potency after 2-3 days as the most radioactive parts decay fastest) and when it travels over you it either has to rain or the dust comes down base don some other meteorological reason.. a lot of things have to come together to hit YOU with fallout.... yes... then a geiger counter would be useful to tell you to stay indoors (3 days!) or if u ave zero threat.. when staying indoors in fallout conditions stay in the basement or in absence of a basement in the middle of the house away form the outside walls.

I like to have things on hand that can be used in more than one situation. I'm just trying to come up with situations in which various masks could be used.
Click to expand...
 
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Meerkat said:
And if they poison the water with bio chems. I hear a few years ago some questionable people were checking out the mouth of our springs aka aquifer.
Will a .5 filter that guards against Gardia,Cysts etc help or not? We do have a little water in zyler bags boxes put up.
Click to expand...

The volume of reservoirs is so large this is doomed to failure.
"Dilution is the solution to pollution"
 
DrPrepper said:
Angie,
The flu is droplet isolation, meaning the particle is larger than 5 microns and will not float in the air. For flu, a surgical/procedural mask is adequate protection. (no sense using the much more expensive N-95- save it for airborne isolation situations!) For anthrax, theoretically only standard precautions are needed because anthrax is not transmitted from human to human (although I would still wear a procedural mask!). As for Ebola, at least an N-95 mask should be worn. Although the CDC says Ebola is not spread via the airborne route (meaning small particles less than 5 microns which can float on the air for hours), I have read a number of studies that contradicts this. In my hospital, anyone who has to deal with Ebola will wear a PAPR (powered air purifying respirator).
I am attaching a guide I created for my organization on bioweapons, including a lot of other information that I hope folks may find helpful.

An important caveat - for a mask to be effective it has to fit correctly. When you put on a surgical mask, be sure to pull it down below your chin and make sure there are no big gaps at the side!
Click to expand...


great info,:Thankyou:
 
angie_nrs said:
I just wanted to add that I found this article very helpful since I had many of the same questions on gas masks. For anyone considering buying one (or more), I found this article informative without a lot of jargon to muddy the water, so to speak.
http://www.happypreppers.com/Gas-mask.html
Click to expand...

The link is pretty good except the author underestimates both the performance and the longevity of these filters.
military filters generally last a very long time.. well beyond the published expiration date.. even when left out of the package as long the humidity is not too high they can last for many years.

I was once in a situation where the filter turned out to be ancient many years past expiration and protected me quite well.
 
BlueZ said:
The link is pretty good except the author underestimates both the performance and the longevity of these filters.
military filters generally last a very long time.. well beyond the published expiration date.. even when left out of the package as long the humidity is not too high they can last for many years.

I was once in a situation where the filter turned out to be ancient many years past expiration and protected me quite well.
Click to expand...

Bluez can general public buy them? Hubby has paint respirators for auto painting are they any good? Of course no face mask.
 
Meerkat said:
Bluez can general public buy them? Hubby has paint respirators for auto painting are they any good? Of course no face mask.
Click to expand...

Yes the public can buy all of these things.. But again I feel a newish design like an M40 protective mask is overkill for a prepper application ( and also has other burdens all the result of designed for very good protection to a high degree)

The paint respirators are great for chemcial threats ( even tho they are not rated for them) but will not be a perfect choice for droplet or dust protection ( as they usually lack a HEPA component) protection.. but will be much better than nothing..

You really dont need a complete facemask but a pair of lab goggles will do just fine (or any pair of comfortable goggles u can personally wear w/o them fogging up in a pinch even shooting goggle can do quite well)
 
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BlueZ said:
Yes the public can buy all of these things.. But again I feel a newish design like an M40 protective mask is overkill for a prepper application ( and also has other burdens all the result of designed for very good protection to a high degree)

The paint respirators are great for chemcial threats ( even tho they are not rated for them) but will not be a perfect choice for droplet or dust protection ( as they usually lack a HEPA component) protection.. but will be much better than nothing..

You really dont need a complete facemask but a pair of lab goggles will do just fine (or any pair of comfortable goggles u can personally wear w/o them fogging up)
Click to expand...

We have snorkel goggles that fit pretty tight or are they overkill? When diving we use to spit clean them to clear the glass or whatever is that still done?
 
They work great but are overkill and out of the water will likely fog up badly
Consider using shooting goggle which you probably have some and if not they they can be had real cheap..
Lab goggles would be best offering decent vision but good splash ( and therefore droplet) protection.... but the most important thing is really to put something over your eyes..
Dont let the perfect be the enemy of the good-enough.
 
BlueZ said:
They work great but are overkill and out of the water will likely fog up badly
Consider using shooting goggle which you probably have some and if they they can be had real cheap..
Lab goggles would be best offering decent vision but good splash ( and therefore droplet) protection.... but the most important thing is really to put something over your eyes..
Dont let the perfect be the enemy of the good-enough.
Click to expand...

I like those little slangs you use " don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good -enough" :cool:.
Well the goggles it is fro now at least. We do have safety and gun goggles too. So guess we'r good. :Thankyou:
 
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