Anti-Coyote Measure - What Sticks To Calf Hide In The Rain?

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Cause coyotes won't eat the ground nesting birds.:rolleyes:

Half my post disappeared....

I was commenting on the "coyotes indirectly protect the ground nesting birds by killing smaller predators" comment in the screen shot above.
 
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We did have a coyote problem at the ranch. It seemed to go in waves. If you've ever seen one or two tease the cow from the head while a few more are eating the calf as it's being born, you would probably think more along the lines of @Supervisor42 I do agree with @Spikedriver in that a guard animal might be helpful.

Yep. Birthing happens here close to the ranch headquarters and with someone riding shotgun so to speak. Coyotes are th ed least of the worries with bears, wolves and mountain lions available.

Not just momma but the herd protects the young and each other. A bull looks to protect them all.

What you are describing is the weakest point for the calf. How you going to get the stuff on it before it is born?

Either way it takes multiple techniques to protect your livestock, one thing does not work for all.

The bag idea will not work for calves, they are not tall enough to have the bag touch them.
 
Alright, so a lot of points to cover, so I'll answer in two replies.

First off,
Are you by any chance looking for clues to help you develop a Ben's Coyote Repellent for young stock?
, not necessarily a repellent only, but something along the lines. And you guys have already given me a lot of valuable information, so it seems to work.

Second of all, yes I am from Denmark, and no we don't have coyotes. The idea started when wolves migrated back into the Denmark and started attacking farmers. As you may know, wolves unlike coyotes not only attack calves but also grown cattle and lots more than they need, which lead to farmers losing almost whole herds. Instead of shooting the animals, the state decided instead to fund so-called "wolf fences" with tax payer money which proved ineffective and expensive, and to pay for lost cattle which is not necessarily bad in of by itself, but it was just a ridiculous solution instead of just killing the problem wolves and scaring fear into the rest. But as you can imagine, a government that won't even let the farmers shoot the wolves certainly won't let them poison them, so even though I had a formula, I just put the idea back on the shelf.

Untill I saw a documentary on coyotes. In this documentary they showed a place called Prince Edwards Island, where a bunch of farmers lost livestock each year to coyotes, some claiming they had lost 10% of their newborn calves every year since the coyotes had returned. Now I looked a bit more into this problem, and found out that most states allow for poisoning of coyotes. Although poisoning coyotes is a good thing, indiscriminatory poisoning of wildlife has a negative toll on nature as seen in experiments from Texas (https://eu.timesrecordnews.com/stor...ack-feral-hog-poison-testing-texas/629868002/). Now I know, that most farmers use m44's (cyanide) instead of sodium nitrate, and even though m44's are more predticable, you can never really predict what happens, and who gets hurt with those kind of traps. Even if nobody gets physically hurt, it can still have a negative effect on people if they were to be found in forests or other nature areas near them, since it would force nature-goers to constantly look for them, when they're out experiencing nature, which ruins the whole idea behind having nature, which is to clear your mind and stress off. Whether that fear is logical or not can be discussed, but I still belive it would have a negative effect.

But since I doubt any farmer is out there purposely trying to instill fear into nature lovers, I decided I would try to invent a time- and cost effective solution to the problem, that would in the long run keep coyotes off of human lands. And so here we are now, with a very crude idea of instilling caution, avoidance and/or fear into the coyotes, by making the coyotes believe that livestock is poisonous for them.
 
Regarding the actual idea,

The ingredients used in the spray aren't dangerous for the cattle, and they won't have any long lasting effect on the quality of the milk or meat. With that said, you DO have a convincing point when it comes to the cow disowning the cattle because it smells weird.

Let's presume I could make a vest, that weighted almost nothing and had a mixture of chili and lethal poison in it, would this discern the mother from raising the young? Would you - the average farmer- be willing to put this vest on the calf? And what is the calf per cow birth ratio ca.?

Furtheremore,
May I suggest you spend a lot of quality time with nature documentaries and studying books about coyotes and domestic livestock such as cattle. If you plan on inventing something to benefit the livestock owner, it would help if you spent some hands-on time dealing with your target animals so that you fully understand why or why not something may or may not work.
I think you're completely right. That in order to develop the final product, I must fully understand the relationship between farmer and coyote, and how coyotes think. But first, I would like to know, how the farmer thinks in terms of, how willing they are to use a product, if it was guaranteed it would keep coyotes away. This allows me to think in realistic solutions, when I start to research coyotes even further.
 
Coyotes are survivors and can be just as destructive as wolves. They will catch/kill/eat anything they can. That includes unguarded family pets. The only deterrent we've found to be effective is a diligent, no mercy guard, human, donkey, bull, stallions or dogs or whatever. One rancher out here has a Shetland pony running in the pasture with his work horses. He calls him 'shark bait' #3.
 
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Let's presume I could make a vest, that weighted almost nothing and had a mixture of chili and lethal poison in it, would this discern the mother from raising the young? Would you - the average farmer- be willing to put this vest on the calf? And what is the calf per cow birth ratio ca.?

A vest would be just as dangerous to the calf as the coyote. There are small farms and ranches where people have regular contact with their animals but those don't usually experience much predator losses. Most cattle are only handled a few times a year. There's no way ranchers are going to catch calves on a regular basis to not just put a poison vest on their animals but to also routinely check for the fit to make sure its not to small. Its just not feasible for someone running 100's cows on 1,000's of acres.
 
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Coyotes are survivors and can be just as destructive as wolves. They will catch/kill/eat anything they can. That includes unguarded family pets. The only effective deterrent we've found to be effective is a diligent, no mercy guard, human, donkey, bull, stallions or dogs or whatever. One rancher out here has a Shetland pony running in the pasture with his work horses. He calls him 'shark bait' #3.
Sorry if it sounded as such, but I wasn't trying to undermine the importance of dealing with the coyote problem. Both wolf and coyote pose a threat to the farming community in Denmark and USA respectively.

But, imagine if the calf/cattle were wearing vests or some similar protection, that would incinerate the coyotes' mouthes with chili and then, depending on how much they chomped off, it would poison and kill them as well. Surely, there wouldn't be a need for a guard then, since the coyotes would either die or learn to fear the cattle?

Only problem I could see with this, and that may be because I am too happy with my own ideas, is that destroying the social-structure in the packs could lead to non-alpha males and females mating, which would increase the amount of litters, which would force some of the coyotes to look for food in livestock. Otherwise, the coyotes would just regulate themselves through their social hierachy, and the coyotes least adapted to killing wildlife, those who attack livestock would die out.

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Thanks for the clarification. I can understand the impetus for your research, the Danish government having forbidden eradication by old methods tried and true. For a wolf problem, that is. Our history indicates that wolves can -with difficulty - be convinced to treat areas as off limits. Coyotes cannot be so convinced. A significant part of our government and academia is populated by people of socialist persuasion - as is yours. Because modern socialism is an urban construct, its policies regarding conditions in the countryside are contaminated by pseudo-philosophical ignorance, encouraged by ungrounded theory.

The unvarnished fact, proven by long experience in our western states, is that coyotes cannot be 'discouraged' from predation. The only cooperative coyote is a dead coyote.
 
Regarding the actual idea,

The ingredients used in the spray aren't dangerous for the cattle, and they won't have any long lasting effect on the quality of the milk or meat. With that said, you DO have a convincing point when it comes to the cow disowning the cattle because it smells weird.

Let's presume I could make a vest, that weighted almost nothing and had a mixture of chili and lethal poison in it, would this discern the mother from raising the young? Would you - the average farmer- be willing to put this vest on the calf? And what is the calf per cow birth ratio ca.?

Furtheremore,
I think you're completely right. That in order to develop the final product, I must fully understand the relationship between farmer and coyote, and how coyotes think. But first, I would like to know, how the farmer thinks in terms of, how willing they are to use a product, if it was guaranteed it would keep coyotes away. This allows me to think in realistic solutions, when I start to research coyotes even further.

No long term effects but you have to overcome the fact that it does have an effect.

As for putting a vest on calves, how much would it cost for 3,000 head? Not every calf is the same size. They range from 40 to 100 pounds depending on the breed.

The big difference I see is the size of the farm you are picturing. For dairy farms we are talking 100 plus head of cattle. For beef we are talking 1000 plus cow calf pairs ranging over thousands of acres.

A friend of mine runs 3000 pairs on 25,000 acres. It is a problem with scale and cost. The farmer makes the least amount in the food chain so anything that takes from the profit hurts.

If my friend loses 10 calves he loses the income they would have brought, maybe $7,000 - $10,000 depending on the market.

He did not really lose that money because he never had it. What he lost was the cost of caring for the cow for that year.

If it cost him $5 per calf he would not do it. It would be cheaper for him to lose $10,000 in potential income than to spend $15,000 in hard cash suiting up 3,000 calves and he may still lose some on top of that.

The most vulnerable time is during birth. You need to also understand how ranches work in that the cows are brought to a pasture close to the headquarters. Someone is with those cows 24/7 until the birthing is done. Not only to protect the herd but also to help any cow with birthing issues such as a breach. They often help out by pulling the calf to lessen the stress on the cow and calf.

Once the calf is up and running with momma there is little to no worry about coyotes out here. Bears and mountain lions are the biggest issue along with wolves. But then, a predator is not going to risk injury going after a healthy animal or herd.
 
I don't believe this Conversation is going anywhere. The OP said he wanted Advise, but any Advise that is given is rejected, In spite of the Fact that all of the Advise given was from Experienced Ranchers, Farmers, Outdoorsmen, and Hunters. I believe what Peanut said, this Guy is an Anti-something, and I'm out.
 
Thanks for the clarification. I can understand the impetus for your research, the Danish government having forbidden eradication by old methods tried and true. For a wolf problem, that is...

The unvarnished fact, proven by long experience in our western states, is that coyotes cannot be 'discouraged' from predation. The only cooperative coyote is a dead coyote.
Excellent point! As much as I love the magic math that if you shoot them, their population will only increase, you need look no further than the history of the American west. The gray wolf populations in the US had been reduced to ZERO by 1926.
Since the 1980's they have been trying to "reintroduce" them into Arizona, New Mexico, Idaho, and Colorado.
They were in all of those states before farmers got fed-up with them and 'shot them all'.

@Benjamin, who knows, you may just come up with a 'killer' chili recipe:D.
 
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Because of the wolves and Coyotes around here, over the next few years we are going to be refencing our place following the old adage.... "horse high, bull strong, and pig tight" along with younger LSG's. Our Mastiffs are 8yrs now and no longer physically up to fighting predators, but they think they still can. We are either going to get more dairy goats or dexter cows. I miss my fresh milk.
 
Because of the wolves and Coyotes around here, over the next few years we are going to be refencing our place... We are either going to get more dairy goats or dexter cows. I miss my fresh milk.
Did you know the popular AR round, the .223 was developed as a less expensive, more powerful varmint round than the .222 Remington introduced in 1950? Both are perfect for wolves or coyotes;).

Back to the original question posted in the OP. I have washed almost everything off of my hands. You definitely remember stuff that WON'T wash off.
What you are looking for is a resin. Several types exist that you could mix a 'deterrent' into that won't wash off.
One that comes to mind is the powder that baseball players use to grip the bat and weightlifters use to grip the barbell.
This stuff mixed with a solvent and the deterrent will make a nasty 'snot' that will not wash off.
It would be much better than 'leggings' because calves grow FAST!
 
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I don't know about how this affects coyotes but wolves tend to recognize and respect urine lines. This is how different packs mark the limits of their territory. Wolves will even respect human urine lines. when they leave their scent on one side of a fence or boulder you urinate on your side. If they are going to challenge your "ownership rights" they will urinate on your side. At that point you place your urine on all sides of the marker and challenge the wolf when he shows up to see if his challenge is met. Normally they will urinate on their side and leave. ownership rights are in balance.
You need to store all the urine from all the men (over the age of puberty) and place it as necessary. Most canine species use this method to mark territory and learn to stay out of competitive territories. we use this method at the mountain cabin and have a place on the outside of the line to put the entrails of animals we harvest. The coyotes and birds know this is a place that is safe and the stuff placed there is gone quickly.
This method does not seem to affect the black bears in the area as they wander through to see if there is an easy meal. We keep the garbage cleaned up and there is nothing for the bears to access easily. On the plus side we get a bear to harvest without much trouble and the coyotes get the entrails - everybody is happy except the occasional bear.
 
I think my dogs have marked every fence post and tree on the property and my husband has marked all around the chickens. The coyotes still come up to the chicken pen.
 
Marking around a food source is never going to dissuade a predator. The prey scent is way too strong and the hectic movement activates the predatory instinct.
 
Marking around a food source is never going to dissuade a predator. The prey scent is way too strong and the hectic movement activates the predatory instinct.

Yes. But the urine isn't stopping them at the fence. These may have had easy access to chickens somewhere which encourages them to ignore the marked fences or maybe they just don't care. Either way that mini 14 is going to get a coyote soon.
 
Yes. But the urine isn't stopping them at the fence. These may have had easy access to chickens somewhere which encourages them to ignore the marked fences or maybe they just don't care. Either way that mini 14 is going to get a coyote soon.
They won't ignore that!:eek::great:
 
@Benjamin Gurini

The only real solution I can think of is robust fencing. Have you ever seen what is known as a "fox pen" in the American South? It is a large plot of land (many acres) where hunters can bring their hunting dogs and hunt foxes and/or coyotes. The enclosure is so large that the hunted animals actually have a sporting chance of escape, so much so, that the dogs are sometimes unsuccessful. However, it is 100% escape-proof. Animals cannot get out of these large enclosures nor can they get in.

If you have money to burn, you might want to study this setup and sink your money into something that has already been proven to work.

Most people don't have the funds to create such a setup, but if coyote depredation of livestock is very high and the the stakes (no pun intended) are also high, this type of enclosure might be cost-effective in the long run.

It is what I would do.
 
I don't believe this Conversation is going anywhere. The OP said he wanted Advise, but any Advise that is given is rejected, In spite of the Fact that all of the Advise given was from Experienced Ranchers, Farmers, Outdoorsmen, and Hunters. I believe what Peanut said, this Guy is an Anti-something, and I'm out.


I don't blame you for opting out. This thread is a study in frustration, lol.

BUT, I see a young man (he is 19 years old) with an inquisitive mind who is bent on exploring all possible avenues and playing "Devil's advocate" with commonly accepted paths.

He is coloring outside the lines, looking outside the box...and that is how many great inventions are born.

Ben, you asked for advice. The best I can offer is this: Get as much education as you can, but remember Mark Twain's famous words: "I never let schooling interfere with my education." (This goes along with the advice I suggested in my first post to you.)

And don't forget Thomas Edison's “I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.” Don't give up, but when you are holding a likely key, don't discard it hoping for a better one. Test it first, so that you don't throw away the one that actually unlocks the door.

Best wishes to you, sir!
 
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He doesn't have the problem but is looking for solutions to benefit others - and maybe make some money doing it. Best of luck! Good old capitalism at work.
 
First of all, thank you for your kind words, it is nice to know, that I'm doing something good for once.

The only real solution I can think of is robust fencing. Have you ever seen what is known as a "fox pen" in the American South? It is a large plot of land (many acres) where hunters can bring their hunting dogs and hunt foxes and/or coyotes.
Regarding the fencing, I have been looking into it. Maybe some sort of blanket, that can be put over wired fence, that can somehow extend it a few feet upwards and secure the fence. But at this point, as you said, I am just looking for all the possible options.

But at the same time, I think you're also right in regards to first fully understanding the problem, before I move on to developing the solution. Although you guys have given me a lot of valuable insight and knowledge, I should perhaps start by spending some time on an actual ranch, maybe volunteering for a month or two, before I start developing a solution.

@Benjamin, who knows, you may just come up with a 'killer' chili recipe:D.
- and this is definetly not a bad idea.
 
The best fence topping would be either several strands of electric farm fence wire or install "coyote rollers."

Basic info about electric fencing to keep coyotes and wolves out: http://www.zarebasystems.com/learning-center/animal-selector/coyotes-wolves

I have installed a LOT of electric fencing by myself, and it is super easy. Tip: be sure to get a good electric fence tester that shows the strength of the current on your wires, not the cheap one light model.

This PDF file has excellent illustrations and more info: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6abd/d5b63f6ff6381201ac33b49f8792e58090e6.pdf


About coyote rollers:

The rollers are placed on top of almost any kind of fence to make it difficult for animals to gain a foothold to pull themselves over the top. The roller rotates with as little as 2 ounces of pressure and withstands 250 pounds of weight.

According to the manufacturer (https://coyoteroller.com/), here’s how it works:

(Quoted from their site)

Our research indicates that a coyote can go over a 6-foot high fence and be in your yard in just over one second! Consequently, it may appear as though the coyote jumped completely over the fence, without touching it. In fact, the "jump" consists of two phases.

First, the coyote jumps to grab hold of the top of the fence with its front paws. The coyote then adds to its vertical momentum by pulling on the top of the fence. This allows him to gain additional height. At the same time, he brings his back paws up to the top of the fence, so that momentary, all four of his paws are in contact with the top of the fence. All of this takes less than half a second!

Next, the coyote then uses his back legs to spring off the fence, while he extends his front paws in preparation for landing. The Coyote Roller interferes with the first part of the jump by making it virtually impossible for the animal to grab the top of the fence. Denied traction, the coyote loses its footing. And combined with the forward momentum, ends up banging into the fence and falling down.

In their demo video, a coyote-size dog scales a fence easily, but with the Coyote Roller installed he can’t begin to get a foothold. In fact after a few attempts the dog won’t even try.

Coyotes, being highly intelligent animals, would probably bypass the fence after a few tries and seek his snacks someplace else.




Cautionary note if you decide to design and make your own "coyote roller"

Homemade roller systems often fail because the wire/cable is not taut enough to keep the rollers from moving down when any weight is applied to them. This means that when an animal of any reasonable weight uses them for leverage (like a dog or coyote), the PVC falls downward and the animal is STILL ABLE to use the top of the fence to leverage to get over.
 
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I don't believe this Conversation is going anywhere. The OP said he wanted Advise, but any Advise that is given is rejected, In spite of the Fact that all of the Advise given was from Experienced Ranchers, Farmers, Outdoorsmen, and Hunters. I believe what Peanut said, this Guy is an Anti-something, and I'm out.
I haven't even participated, but I see this.
 
This is a strange thread. According to duckduckgo there are no coyotes in Denmark.
There is however a Denmark, SC so maybe he's there. To answer the original question I doubt there is anything you can apply to deter coyotes.
IF this miracle concoction existed it would be selling by the truck load. Poisionus to coyotes but not cattle or humans? Doubtfull.
 
I was thinking more along the lines of he probably knows someone in the States (or elsewhere) who is having a problem with coyotes and is wanting to do all he can to help? But that's just me, lol.
 
This is a strange thread. According to duckduckgo there are no coyotes in Denmark.
There is however a Denmark, SC ...
Post #33:
Alright, so a lot of points to cover...
Second of all, yes I am from Denmark, and no we don't have coyotes. The idea started when wolves migrated back into the Denmark and started attacking farmers. As you may know, wolves unlike coyotes not only attack calves but also grown cattle...
RTT.
 
I don't blame you for opting out. This thread is a study in frustration, lol.

BUT, I see a young man (he is 19 years old) with an inquisitive mind who is bent on exploring all possible avenues and playing "Devil's advocate" with commonly accepted paths.

He is coloring outside the lines, looking outside the box...and that is how many great inventions are born.

Ben, you asked for advice. The best I can offer is this: Get as much education as you can, but remember Mark Twain's famous words: "I never let schooling interfere with my education." (This goes along with the advice I suggested in my first post to you.)

And don't forget Thomas Edison's “I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.” Don't give up, but when you are holding a likely key, don't discard it hoping for a better one. Test it first, so that you don't throw away the one that actually unlocks the door.

Best wishes to you, sir!

Before I came to this Forum I, and many others here belonged to another Forum that had as Members Two People, One Named "Peaches" the other "Geek999". These Two were the most Annoying, most Disagreeable People I have had the Displeasure of Interacting with. They would ask a Question as though they really wanted to learn, and then what ever Answers were given wasn't quite good enough. They were Interested only in Arguing, Demeaning, and in many Cases Slandering certain Members because they were LEO, and because they Hated the Police. So, with all that being said, when I come across a Person who says "Yeah But" to every Suggestion offered, and has a reason for why you're wrong and he's right, I begin to suspect his Motives. Maybe I'm Wrong, I've been Wrong before, but these are my Reasons for Opting out, and as you can see, not just a case of Frustration.
 

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