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How about if we charge politicians that vote for an unconstitutional law that is found to be unconstitutional by the courts with something like 3rd degree treason carrying a penalty be disqualification from public service for life? That would make politicians darn careful methinks.


CrackBottom, sounds good but then its the ones who now make the laws that are breaking the laws the most.
And this reaching across the isles thing is way out of hand. We didn't put them in office to get along with the socialist but to protect us from them.
 
CrackBottom, sounds good but then its the ones who now make the laws that are breaking the laws the most.
And this reaching across the isles thing is way out of hand. We didn't put them in office to get along with the socialist but to protect us from them.

They break the law because there are no consequences for doing so. I agree we would never get them to institute a law like that limiting their (what should be illegal) activities that they have no intention of stopping. Just what I would like to see because I think it would be effective and, in my opinion, well within the bounds of reasonable.
 
How about if we charge politicians that vote for an unconstitutional law that is found to be unconstitutional by the courts with something like 3rd degree treason carrying a penalty be disqualification from public service for life? That would make politicians darn careful methinks.

I would just be happy with term limits and the ability to immediately oust any politician who violates the will of the people. That would sort out of lot of issues.
 
I would just be happy with term limits and the ability to immediately oust any politician who violates the will of the people. That would sort out of lot of issues.

Yep. Perhaps there should be some kind of sanctions in place for politicians that vote for an unconstitutional law that gets smacked down by the courts for being such.

It puzzles me how anyone can take the oath they do and turn right around and violate said oath with impunity.
 
I would just be happy with term limits and the ability to immediately oust any politician who violates the will of the people. That would sort out of lot of issues.

Kind of but if you look at Cali (I know, Cali) term limits just turned into a revolving door between biz and gov. I think there needs to be real consequences for subverting the law of the land against the American people. But yes, that would be a step in the right direction.
 
Well, there is this. Seems it's a federal crime to violate one's oath of office.
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http://foavc.org/01page/Articles/Violation of Oath of Office and Walker v Members of Congress.htm

Violation of Oath of Office and Walker v Members of Congress


In refusing to obey the law of the Constitution and call an Article V Convention when required to do so, the members of Congress not only violated federal income tax law but their oath of office as well. The Constitution requires that all members of Congress must take an oath of office to support the Constitution before assuming office. In order to comply with the Constitution, Congress has enacted federal laws to execute and enforce this constitutional requirement.


Federal law regulating oath of office by government officials is divided into four parts along with an executive order which further defines the law for purposes of enforcement. 5 U.S.C. 3331, provides the text of the actual oath of office members of Congress are required to take before assuming office. 5 U.S.C. 3333 requires members of Congress sign an affidavit that they have taken the oath of office required by 5 U.S.C. 3331 and have not or will not violate that oath of office during their tenure of office as defined by the third part of the law, 5 U.S.C. 7311 which explicitly makes it a federal criminal offense (and a violation of oath of office) for anyone employed in the United States Government (including members of Congress) to “advocate the overthrow of our constitutional form of government”. The fourth federal law, 18 U.S.C. 1918 provides penalties for violation of oath office described in 5 U.S.C. 7311 which include: (1) removal from office and; (2) confinement or a fine.


The definition of “advocate” is further specified in Executive Order 10450 which for the purposes of enforcement supplements 5 U.S.C. 7311. One provision of Executive Order 10450 specifies it is a violation of 5 U.S.C. 7311 for any person taking the oath of office to advocate “the alteration ... of the form of the government of the United States by unconstitutional means.” Our form of government is defined by the Constitution of the United States. It can only be “altered” by constitutional amendment. Thus, according to Executive Order 10450 (and therefore 5 U.S. 7311) any act taken by government officials who have taken the oath of office prescribed by 5 U.S.C. 3331which alters the form of government other by amendment, is a criminal violation of the 5 U.S.C. 7311.


Congress has never altered the Article V Convention clause by constitutional amendment. Hence, the original language written in the law by the Framers and its original intent remains undisturbed and intact. That law specifies a convention call is peremptory on Congress when the states have applied for a convention call and uses the word “shall” to state this. The states have applied. When members of Congress disobey the law of the Constitution and refuse to issue a call for an Article V Convention when peremptorily required to do so by that law, they have asserted a veto power when none exists nor was ever intended to exist in that law. This veto alters the form of our government by removing one of the methods of amendment proposal the law of the Constitution creates. Such alteration without amendment is a criminal violation of 5 U.S.C. 7311 and 18 U.S.C. 1918.


In addition, the members of Congress committed a second criminal violation of their oaths of office regarding an Article V Convention call. 5 U.S.C. 7311 clearly specifies it is a criminal violation for any member of Congress to advocate the overthrow of our constitutional form of government. The definition of the word “advocate” is to: “defend by argument before a tribunal or the public: support or recommend publicly.”


The single intent of the federal lawsuit Walker v Members of Congress (a public record) was to compel Congress to obey the law of the Constitution and call an Article V Convention as peremptorily required by that law, the original intent of which has never altered by constitutional amendment. The lawsuit was brought because Congress has refused to obey the law of the Constitution. Such refusal obviously establishes the objective of the members of Congress to overthrow our form of government by establishing they (the members of Congress) can disobey the law of the Constitution and thus overthrow our constitutional form of government.


The word “peremptory” precludes any objection whatsoever by members of Congress to refuse to call an Article V Convention. This peremptory preclusion certainly includes joining a lawsuit to oppose obeying the law of the Constitution and it may be vetoed by members of Congress. That act not only violates the law of the Constitution but 5 U.S.C. 7311 as well. When the members of Congress joined to oppose Walker v Members of Congress their opposition became part of the court record and therefore a matter of public record. Thus, regardless of whatever arguments for such opposition were presented by their legal counsel to justify their opposition, the criminal violation of the oath of office occurred because the members of Congress joined the lawsuit to publicly declare their opposition to obeying the law of the Constitution. Comments
 
Well, there is this. Seems it's a federal crime to violate one's oath of office.
=================================================

http://foavc.org/01page/Articles/Violation of Oath of Office and Walker v Members of Congress.htm

Violation of Oath of Office and Walker v Members of Congress


In refusing to obey the law of the Constitution and call an Article V Convention when required to do so, the members of Congress not only violated federal income tax law but their oath of office as well. The Constitution requires that all members of Congress must take an oath of office to support the Constitution before assuming office. In order to comply with the Constitution, Congress has enacted federal laws to execute and enforce this constitutional requirement.


Federal law regulating oath of office by government officials is divided into four parts along with an executive order which further defines the law for purposes of enforcement. 5 U.S.C. 3331, provides the text of the actual oath of office members of Congress are required to take before assuming office. 5 U.S.C. 3333 requires members of Congress sign an affidavit that they have taken the oath of office required by 5 U.S.C. 3331 and have not or will not violate that oath of office during their tenure of office as defined by the third part of the law, 5 U.S.C. 7311 which explicitly makes it a federal criminal offense (and a violation of oath of office) for anyone employed in the United States Government (including members of Congress) to “advocate the overthrow of our constitutional form of government”. The fourth federal law, 18 U.S.C. 1918 provides penalties for violation of oath office described in 5 U.S.C. 7311 which include: (1) removal from office and; (2) confinement or a fine.


The definition of “advocate” is further specified in Executive Order 10450 which for the purposes of enforcement supplements 5 U.S.C. 7311. One provision of Executive Order 10450 specifies it is a violation of 5 U.S.C. 7311 for any person taking the oath of office to advocate “the alteration ... of the form of the government of the United States by unconstitutional means.” Our form of government is defined by the Constitution of the United States. It can only be “altered” by constitutional amendment. Thus, according to Executive Order 10450 (and therefore 5 U.S. 7311) any act taken by government officials who have taken the oath of office prescribed by 5 U.S.C. 3331which alters the form of government other by amendment, is a criminal violation of the 5 U.S.C. 7311.


Congress has never altered the Article V Convention clause by constitutional amendment. Hence, the original language written in the law by the Framers and its original intent remains undisturbed and intact. That law specifies a convention call is peremptory on Congress when the states have applied for a convention call and uses the word “shall” to state this. The states have applied. When members of Congress disobey the law of the Constitution and refuse to issue a call for an Article V Convention when peremptorily required to do so by that law, they have asserted a veto power when none exists nor was ever intended to exist in that law. This veto alters the form of our government by removing one of the methods of amendment proposal the law of the Constitution creates. Such alteration without amendment is a criminal violation of 5 U.S.C. 7311 and 18 U.S.C. 1918.


In addition, the members of Congress committed a second criminal violation of their oaths of office regarding an Article V Convention call. 5 U.S.C. 7311 clearly specifies it is a criminal violation for any member of Congress to advocate the overthrow of our constitutional form of government. The definition of the word “advocate” is to: “defend by argument before a tribunal or the public: support or recommend publicly.”


The single intent of the federal lawsuit Walker v Members of Congress (a public record) was to compel Congress to obey the law of the Constitution and call an Article V Convention as peremptorily required by that law, the original intent of which has never altered by constitutional amendment. The lawsuit was brought because Congress has refused to obey the law of the Constitution. Such refusal obviously establishes the objective of the members of Congress to overthrow our form of government by establishing they (the members of Congress) can disobey the law of the Constitution and thus overthrow our constitutional form of government.


The word “peremptory” precludes any objection whatsoever by members of Congress to refuse to call an Article V Convention. This peremptory preclusion certainly includes joining a lawsuit to oppose obeying the law of the Constitution and it may be vetoed by members of Congress. That act not only violates the law of the Constitution but 5 U.S.C. 7311 as well. When the members of Congress joined to oppose Walker v Members of Congress their opposition became part of the court record and therefore a matter of public record. Thus, regardless of whatever arguments for such opposition were presented by their legal counsel to justify their opposition, the criminal violation of the oath of office occurred because the members of Congress joined the lawsuit to publicly declare their opposition to obeying the law of the Constitution. Comments

There has got to be some way to use this to prosecute these politicians. As it's written probably a stretch but I think it could be done.
 
I would just be happy with term limits and the ability to immediately oust any politician who violates the will of the people. That would sort out of lot of issues.


:I agree::green man:Throw their lying lips out every four years or 8 max.
Want to know who is really for the people, see how much their income has changed. 99.99% come out like the bandits they are. :waiting: Some may survive a few years of politics and still be decent but power gets to them.
 
What "we" really need is Loyalists getting off their butts to vote AND run for office!

Lazy none of us seem to be immune to power. There is a dictator looming inside us all.
It happend to me just being president of a little homeowners association.:ghostly:/
We can only handle power for so long before we start thinking we are wiser than those we govern.
One of my wise members ,neighbor told me " So whats so good about being 'Queen over Blank Blank Community?"a rude awakening for me to see I had become one of those people I don't like. I do that now and then. :eyeballs:
 
It seems to me that the problem here is the back door left open by the 2nd point in the Heller ruling:

2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.​

Unfortunately, Justice Scalia's language leaves quite a bit of "wiggle room" for the gun control crowd. So I'm a little skeptical that SCOTUS will provide a bright line ruling even with the current conservative majority on the bench.
 
fteter,
There are two problems with the Heller decision:
1. The constitution doesn't give any branch of our government the power to preside over our rights.
2. The second amendment is very plain that the right shall not be infringed.

The rights have a directive to all affected levels of government to leave them alone. The only one who can remove your rights is you, in an act of limiting the rights and freedoms of another.
 
https://pjmedia.com/jchristianadams/flashback-30-years-guns-schools-nothing-happened/

Banner.sized-770x415xt.jpg


he millennial generation might be surprised to learn that theirs is the first without guns in school. Just 30 years ago, high school kids rode the bus with rifles and shot their guns at high school rifle ranges.

After another school shooting, it's time to ask: what changed?


Cross guns off the list of things that changed in thirty years. In 1985, semi-automatic rifles existed, and a semi-automatic rifle was used in Florida. Guns didn’t suddenly decide to visit mayhem on schools. Guns can’t decide.



High school gun range 1985. "Ob
 
Guns legal in church 40 years ago...
I don't understand the "guns legal/illegal in churches" discussion. With all the "separation of church and state" discussion these days, how can the government make ANY law that specifically deals with what the government has to be separated from - churches? A church is private property, and a very special kind of private property that must be kept separate from the government. You'd think that of all places, a church would be a place where the government would have zero say in whether you can carry a gun or not. But yet, the government can evidently make a law, very specific that applies only to churches, saying "you cannot carry a gun in a church". Now how do they get away with that, given the required separation?
 
fteter,
There are two problems with the Heller decision:
1. The constitution doesn't give any branch of our government the power to preside over our rights.
2. The second amendment is very plain that the right shall not be infringed.

The rights have a directive to all affected levels of government to leave them alone. The only one who can remove your rights is you, in an act of limiting the rights and freedoms of another.

Article III of the U.S. Constitution decreed that the nation’s judicial power, to apply and interpret the laws, should be vested in “one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.” That part about apply and interpret the laws seems to give the courts some leeway in determining how our rights are exercised. That being said, I suspect we both agree that the courts have gone way beyond their constitutionally enumerated power by creating new law - sometimes in baby steps with stare decisis and other times by flat-out creating new law from the bench in a single decision.

But that second point you make is spot on: "shall not be infringed" is pretty plain on the face of it. And that's precisely my issue with the Heller decision: it effectively overwrites a constitutional amendment and creates new law from the bench by limiting or infringing the right enumerated in the 2nd Amendment as part of the judicial holding.
 
In the bok of Micah ,in my understanding of a chapter it says the rich man is prone to violence so why would he want us serfs to own guns too. Or get rich rich too. Money is power. So where is the happy medium?:dunno:



https://www.biblestudytools.com/micah/6-12-compare.html
Micah 6:12 (CJB) The rich men there are full of violence, the inhabitants tell lies, with tongues of deceit in their mouths. Micah 6:12 (CSB) For the wealthy of the city are full of violence, and its residents speak lies; the tongues in their mouths are deceitful.
 
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Article III of the U.S. Constitution decreed that the nation’s judicial power, to apply and interpret the laws, should be vested in “one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.” That part about apply and interpret the laws seems to give the courts some leeway in determining how our rights are exercised. That being said, I suspect we both agree that the courts have gone way beyond their constitutionally enumerated power by creating new law - sometimes in baby steps with stare decisis and other times by flat-out creating new law from the bench in a single decision.

But that second point you make is spot on: "shall not be infringed" is pretty plain on the face of it. And that's precisely my issue with the Heller decision: it effectively overwrites a constitutional amendment and creates new law from the bench by limiting or infringing the right enumerated in the 2nd Amendment as part of the judicial holding.

It would seem that way. Since they were given the right to ammend the laws what good was the laws written is they could be changed at the whim of which one could sell us out into communisim or what we all left, 'serfdom'?
This is why any of them who accept money while in office should be tried for sedition or treason in some cases. And why did'nt they make term mlimits for all not just the president?
 
Article III of the U.S. Constitution decreed that the nation’s judicial power, to apply and interpret the laws, should be vested in “one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.” That part about apply and interpret the laws seems to give the courts some leeway in determining how our rights are exercised. That being said, I suspect we both agree that the courts have gone way beyond their constitutionally enumerated power by creating new law - sometimes in baby steps with stare decisis and other times by flat-out creating new law from the bench in a single decision.

But that second point you make is spot on: "shall not be infringed" is pretty plain on the face of it. And that's precisely my issue with the Heller decision: it effectively overwrites a constitutional amendment and creates new law from the bench by limiting or infringing the right enumerated in the 2nd Amendment as part of the judicial holding.

The supreme court can challenge laws but not our rights. The second amendment doesn't say "...the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, depending on the law or the ruling of courts." It simply says the right shall not be infringed. Since The bill of rights was added after the powers of government were stated we can assume that no power granted to the government applies to modify the rights, listed or not.
You should remember that the constitution doesn't grant us rights it serves to recognize those rights and remind the government of it's primary purpose, which is to preserve and protect those rights for the individual.

Although it is common to read expansion into the powers granted to the government the constitution was written to restrict and limit the powers of the federal and state governments. Read it in the simple language it was drafted in. It was written, not for lawyers and judges but for the people to understand. The idea of expanding the meaning comes from the government lawyers and not from the people or the document.
 
The supreme court can challenge laws but not our rights. The second amendment doesn't say "...the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, depending on the law or the ruling of courts." It simply says the right shall not be infringed. Since The bill of rights was added after the powers of government were stated we can assume that no power granted to the government applies to modify the rights, listed or not.
You should remember that the constitution doesn't grant us rights it serves to recognize those rights and remind the government of it's primary purpose, which is to preserve and protect those rights for the individual.

Although it is common to read expansion into the powers granted to the government the constitution was written to restrict and limit the powers of the federal and state governments. Read it in the simple language it was drafted in. It was written, not for lawyers and judges but for the people to understand. The idea of expanding the meaning comes from the government lawyers and not from the people or the document.

This woman is good, she eats,sleeps and breathes Constitutional law for decades.

 
What she says is true. Truth also has power.
 
The supreme court can challenge laws but not our rights. The second amendment doesn't say "...the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, depending on the law or the ruling of courts." It simply says the right shall not be infringed. Since The bill of rights was added after the powers of government were stated we can assume that no power granted to the government applies to modify the rights, listed or not.
You should remember that the constitution doesn't grant us rights it serves to recognize those rights and remind the government of it's primary purpose, which is to preserve and protect those rights for the individual.

Although it is common to read expansion into the powers granted to the government the constitution was written to restrict and limit the powers of the federal and state governments. Read it in the simple language it was drafted in. It was written, not for lawyers and judges but for the people to understand. The idea of expanding the meaning comes from the government lawyers and not from the people or the document.
But the Constitution does give the courts the power to interpret and apply those rights as expressed in the Bill of Rights (among other legal documents). And it's the application that matters.
 
But the Constitution does give the courts the power to interpret and apply those rights as expressed in the Bill of Rights (among other legal documents). And it's the application that matters.

No it doesn't. The constitution gives the high court the power to litigate laws based on the intent. It can rule that a law goes against the intent of a right but they have no power to diminish or restrict the right.
When the right reads "the congress shall make no law..." or the right says "...shall not be infringed..." and the constitution doesn't plainly specify a power there is no power granted.

Much like the interstate commerce act which was made to promote free trade between the states, the congress has expanded the power to restrict interstate trade. The constitution does not express that power.
 
No it doesn't. The constitution gives the high court the power to litigate laws based on the intent. It can rule that a law goes against the intent of a right but they have no power to diminish or restrict the right.
When the right reads "the congress shall make no law..." or the right says "...shall not be infringed..." and the constitution doesn't plainly specify a power there is no power granted.

Much like the interstate commerce act which was made to promote free trade between the states, the congress has expanded the power to restrict interstate trade. The constitution does not express that power.
I guess I'll just tip my hat, smile and move along at this point. The language is pretty plain to me - SCOTUS and the courts have power to interpret and apply law. I guess we just see it differently. All the best to ya, Sheepdog. I'm out.
 
Fteter,
It's OK to disagree and even better to debate the different sides of the topic. I could switch sides with you and take your view because there is legal history for both sides.
I like that you have a different view and I applaud you for it. I do happen to be on the "originalist" side of the constitution but I still recognize that legal history doesn't always hold true to that view.

We can stop the debate but please don't think that I am saying that I'm right and you are wrong. We are just debating. I like you and honor your views. I just like to get as much on a topic out there so people can make informed decisions. In this particular debate both sides have lots of evidence but I tend to go with the original intent and less on jurisprudence.

One thought for you to consider: Our rights are not law, laws are provided by the government and our rights predate government.
 
Fteter,
It's OK to disagree and even better to debate the different sides of the topic. I could switch sides with you and take your view because there is legal history for both sides.
I like that you have a different view and I applaud you for it. I do happen to be on the "originalist" side of the constitution but I still recognize that legal history doesn't always hold true to that view.

We can stop the debate but please don't think that I am saying that I'm right and you are wrong. We are just debating. I like you and honor your views. I just like to get as much on a topic out there so people can make informed decisions. In this particular debate both sides have lots of evidence but I tend to go with the original intent and less on jurisprudence.

One thought for you to consider: Our rights are not law, laws are provided by the government and our rights predate government.

This is the way to have a good debate. Just awesome.
 
Thanks Louis!
 
Anyone in Virginia here? Any first-hand account of the goings-on today? It looks like it was quite peaceful; I'm glad there wasn't a false-flag event! Any opinion on whether the turn-out today will push back the gun grabbers?
 

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