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Anti-Coyote Measure - What Sticks To Calf Hide In The Rain?

Discussion in 'Cattle' started by Benjamin Gurini, Nov 10, 2019.

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  1. Nov 10, 2019 #1

    Benjamin Gurini

    Benjamin Gurini

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    Hello,

    I am currently considering making an anti-coyote measure, which is meant to stick to calf hide. I already have the active ingredient that is meant for the coyote.

    But a problem I have incurred is, that obviously for the substance to be a success, it must also be economically viable both in terms of work hours "lost" and cost of the actual product. So if the substance is washed away every time it rains and it has to be reapplied again it would be quite time consuming and costly.

    Therefore, I am wondering if any of you know any substances liquid or slimey that can stick to calf hide even in the rain? The more common an ingredient, the better.
     
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  2. Nov 10, 2019 #2

    Terri9630

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    What are you trying to "stick"? I've never heard of something you put on livestock to deter coyotes.

    The only thing that comes to mind is tree sap.
     
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  3. Nov 10, 2019 #3

    Benjamin Gurini

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    I can't give you the precise details, but it is basicly a combination of a deterent and a poison, that is non-lethal to humans and livestock but lethal enough to either make the coyote vommit and have fever-like symptoms or die, depending on how much is sprayed on the animal.

    The reason this makes sense is either, the coyote learns that farm animals are poisonous. Otherwise, the real problem coyotes die. Of course, you might think that all coyotes are "problem coyotes," but new research actually points toward there being problem coyotes and coyotes, who're still opportunistic but perhaps less so than the problem coyotes, and they can therefore be conditioned.

    Tree sap certainly sounds interesting, but I think it would be too hard to apply to the cattle, considering it stiffens and has to be heated to be applied.
     
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  4. Nov 10, 2019 #4

    camo2460

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    Anything that you apply to a Calf's Hide, and stays Sticky will cause more Trouble than it's worth. It will be exposed to Sun Light and Water which is a Universal Solvent, and will quickly degrade. Not to mention it will collect Dirt, Debris, and Insects which will become a Perfect Breeding Ground for Disease, Parasites, and Fungus Infections. It seems to me that a few Traps, and a good Rifle and Scope will provide you with some Fun, thin the Coyote Population, and could put a few Bucks in your Pocket.
     
  5. Nov 10, 2019 #5

    Benjamin Gurini

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    Don't farmers already apply anti-parasite measures to their calves, that don't cause these kind of problems? How many times are these applied a week?

    And although, I do enjoy hunting I hate to break it to you, but coyotes have an evolutionary measurement exactly against a thinning population: They breed fast, a ton faster. That's why, despite 500.000 +/- being killed yearly in the USA annually, the coyote population is still growing. And to add salt to the wound, killing all coyotes doesn't just increase to population, it leaves room for those problem coyotes, that are the worst of the problem.

    That's why, I believe, we need to condition them to fear and understand livestock and humans.
     
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  6. Nov 10, 2019 #6

    Cnsper

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    I live in the heart of cattle country and coyotes are not a problem where ranches are measured in thousands of acres. Momma takes care of those coyotes.

    I would get a donkey before applying stuff like that to my cattle.
     
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  7. Nov 10, 2019 #7

    camo2460

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    Yes, I understand what you're trying to do, and yes Cattle are Dipped, but what you are proposing would cause a Build up of "Gunk" on the Cows Hide which is where the possibility for Disease comes in. Further your Logic concerning the Coyote Population is Flawed, because if what you say is correct we would be Neck Deep in Coyotes. Your Explanation is very Simplistic, and doesn't take in to consideration the many Variables that Nature provides. For Example, what do you think would happen to the Deer or Elk Population if there were no Hunting or Predation? I'll tell you the Deer or Elk would quickly Over Populate their Range which would lead to Starvation and Disease and Naturally Thin the Population. The same thing happens in the Coyote Population, and since they are at or near the top of the Food Chain and have almost no Natural Predation other than Humans.
     
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  8. Nov 10, 2019 #8

    Peanut

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    Most importantly… can you provide links to this “New Research”. Coyotes are predators period... It's what nature designed them to do. There are no good coyotes or bad coyotes..."problem coyotes"... that term sounds like a human projecting their skewed view of the world on nature.

    We had a cow and calf killed by coyotes week before last... Have fought them for decades.

    No... I've never heard of anything to stick to calf fur to deter or kill coyotes or any other reason... If there were it'd be on the front page of every stockman or cattle producer’s magazine in the US. The other obvious concern is cows groom their calves all the time. Whatever you stick to a calf will end up in their mother’s stomachs.

    As far as coyotes learning that farm animals are poisonous… Coyotes aren’t taught or learn that they are edible to begin with, it’s written into their DNA… So good luck with convincing them otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  9. Nov 10, 2019 #9

    Benjamin Gurini

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    You're right, it was explained too simplistic, and yes there are many variables that might affect the population of coyotes, still I believe, that indiscriminate killing does evil than good. As you may know coyotes and other canines typically have alpha- female and male type of breeding, where there is only one breeding pair and therefore only one litter every mating season. The problem with indiscriminate killing is, that when you shoot every coyote there is you risk shooting the alpha pair which breaks up social cohesion and lets the other coyotes mate(http://www.projectcoyote.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/PC_SAB_Coyote-Facts_FINAL_2.5.19.pdf).

    But regarding the gunk problem, do you think there would be a problem if my substance was pure liquid and staid on the calf, much the same way pesticide sticks to a leaf? And based on your own farming experience, how many hours/minutes a week/month do you think farmers would be willing to allocate to dipping their cattle in this?
     
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  10. Nov 10, 2019 #10

    Benjamin Gurini

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    Well, I agree that coyotes are by nature opportunistic and predatorial when it comes to finding food, which is what has led them to figure out livestock is a great source of food in the first place. But what I also believe is, that there is a difference between the boldness of the different coyotes. And at the same time, I believe that coyotes are some of the most intelligent predators out there, which means that they can learn despite their boldness. Therefore, if we remove the ultra-bold coyotes from the gene pool, and we make the rest of the coyotes believe that livestock is dangerous for them, they will learn to avoid it.

    Same thing happened when they re-introduced wolves in grand teton national park, where 1/3 of the coyotes were killed every year. The coyotes that were left were much less bolder and much more likely to stay out of wolf territory. Which once again shows, that coyotes can learn from experience, much the same way other predators do. But of course, as was mentioned before there are tons of variables to consider when it comes to nature. But I still believe the best way to teach the coyotes, is not to teach them that humans are dangerous, but that the livestock is poisonous. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070911111523.htm

    And the coyotes I refer to as "problem coyotes" are the ones, who are too opportunistic and bold for their own good. And yes, of course deeming some coyotes as "problem coyotes" on the basis of their nature is a human and not natural thing to do, but at the same time, this is a human problem.

    Also, which measures did you take before and after this attack? And how big of an impact have coyotes had on you economically?

    Also, this just sounds promising to me ;) - and of course, the ingredients used in the substance aren't harmful to the cattle nor their meat/milk.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  11. Nov 10, 2019 #11

    Terri9630

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    Per week? None. There are ear tags to deter ticks and rubs that are big cloth bags that have 7 dust or a similar product in them. The tags are put on once a year and the cows walk under the rubs usually when they go through a gate. They aren't rounded up and sprayed on a regular basis.
     
  12. Nov 10, 2019 #12

    Benjamin Gurini

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    That actually sounds perfect for applying this stuff, question is though, how common are these rubs? And how often are the rubs sprayed?
     
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  13. Nov 10, 2019 #13

    Terri9630

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    Rubs aren't sprayed. Its use depends on the environmental conditions.
     
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  14. Nov 10, 2019 #14

    VThillman

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    Hah. I know nothing about the feasibility of creating a coyote repellent, but I have read papers by naturalists who have studied coyote predation on farm critturs. There is some pretty hard evidence that the alpha males & females are alphas because they are superior both in mind and limb, and take responsibility for the well-being of the extended family they lead. They tend to be cautious. Removing their influence usually has negative results for the stockman. "Know thy enemy."
     
  15. Nov 10, 2019 #15

    Cnsper

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    Zero, dipping does not happen unless needed. I have seen cows drive a bear into the ground. I have pulled a wolf off the horn of a bull and later found 2 more dead. You will never convince me that coyotes are a problem or threat to healthy cattle at all.

    Maybe for the person that has a few head but then you have to overcome the aversion to chemicals.
     
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  16. Nov 10, 2019 #16

    Benjamin Gurini

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    You're right, as so far that coyotes rarely - if ever- kill adult cattle, what I mean to do is to "coat" the calves, which are at risk.

    Also, the formula isn't "chemical" per se. The things in it have been consumed by most people throughout their lifetime.
     
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  17. Nov 10, 2019 #17

    Benjamin Gurini

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    Exactly, indiscriminate killing destroys the social structure, which is "plus" for the coyote as a species (i.e their numbers increase,) but is a minus for the farmer since the young coyotes are less experienced and bolder. And since they don't know the reason they're being killed is directly linked to them predating on livestock, they just avoid humans not the livestock. And at the same time, the fact there is a difference between the young and the old shows, that the coyotes can learn to fear.

    Which is why I want to link the coyotes fear directly to the livestock aswell and not just the humans.
     
  18. Nov 10, 2019 #18

    Benjamin Gurini

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    - But I would like to bring this back to the question; Does anyone know of a substance, that can be applied to a fly-rub device, that can stick to the cattle without creating "gunk"? Once again, I am looking for things that you have noticed keeps getting stuck to your cattle or have heard of from other farmers.
     
  19. Nov 10, 2019 #19

    Terri9630

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    Single, or even pairs of coyotes aren't usually an issue for adults but we have lost calves and had one cow killed when she was found while she was giving birth.
     
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  20. Nov 10, 2019 #20

    Spikedriver

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    The only downside to killing coyotes is the time you have to spend to do it. If I were you I'd find hunters who are trustworthy people and cut them loose on your land. You can only shoot coyotes out temporarily so they need to be able and willing to hunt often.

    As far as your deterrent - AFAIK there is nothing that can do what you want. If you want to repel coyotes, get a pair of Burmese Mountain Dogs and turn them out with your herd. Billy goats can be intolerant of 'yotes as well, and somebody already mentioned Donkeys. Coyote protection is a 365 days a year job, there is no "fire and forget" weapon...
     
  21. Nov 10, 2019 #21

    VThillman

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    I don't know that 'fear' is the right word for how coyotes regard humans. Caution and aversion maybe. Are you by any chance looking for clues to help you develop a Ben's Coyote Repellent for young stock? If so, good luck with that.
     
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  22. Nov 10, 2019 #22

    Supervisor42

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    +1
    Shoot the bastids!
    Shoot them all.
    Let them rot right where they fall.
    Any others that pass thru will just keep going.
    Put a $10 bounty on each one dropped and invite impoverished people to take a shot.
    Tell'em "That's what AR15's are for!":great:
    Waaay less expensive and time-consuming than trying to "coyote-proof" the calves.
    My mom put a bounty on plenty of stuff from beavers to thorn trees.
    We 5 brothers wiped the place clean:D.

    If you try to play "Mr. Nice Guy" with coyotes, you will lose.

    Edit: Just realized you are in Denmark. Don't know if it is a 'gun-free' country or not:(.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
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  23. Nov 10, 2019 #23

    VThillman

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    Don't know if Denmark has a coyote problem either. My guess is not.
     
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  24. Nov 10, 2019 #24

    Spikedriver

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    Ummmmm...
     
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  25. Nov 10, 2019 #25

    LadyLocust

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    Some interesting thoughts so far. I am with @Peanut in that I wouldn't be putting anything on the calves knowing that the cow would be ingesting the substance. In addition, if you change the scent of the calf, you run the risk of the momma kicking them off. @Cnsper We did have a coyote problem at the ranch. It seemed to go in waves. If you've ever seen one or two tease the cow from the head while a few more are eating the calf as it's being born, you would probably think more along the lines of @Supervisor42 I do agree with @Spikedriver in that a guard animal might be helpful. We neither dipped the cattle nor did we have the powder bags. If we bought "new" cattle, we might before bringing them into the heard. They were also kept separate for a period of time to ensure they were healthy. As far as coyotes "learning" to stay away from wolves, it's because wolves kill coyotes. It's called predator becoming prey. It's not training. Sorry, @Benjamin Gurini but there's almost no way to convince me to spray such a thing on a critter. Not to be a complete downer though, perhaps if it was something sprayed on the perimeter fencing and marketed to those with small herds, especially if it helped detour neighbor dogs as well as coyotes. I think the larger scale cattlemen would be a tougher sell.
     
  26. Nov 10, 2019 #26

    Supervisor42

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    I don't think he is a Russian Ukrainian troll so we can pursue this a bit further.
    A repellent could not work based on scent for 2 reasons.
    First, cows identify their calves by smell. If the calf stank unnaturally, the mother wouldn't let it nurse as LL said.
    Second, coyotes are in a full run yards behind a calf before they would even smell it.
    Their first contact would be bites to the legs.
    For a repellent that causes nausea when swallowed, it would be too late by the time it acted, so that's out.
    The only other thing that would work would be something like really-hot pepper sauce that would set the coyote's mouth on fire when he bit.
    Of course these would also set the calf's legs on fire over time because they are a skin irritant.
    Probably best would be to look back at how shepherds protected their flocks in the past like @Spikedriver said.
    As a last resort, @Cnsper is right. 100% effective is a mean bull.
    They will grind anything into a fine powder that they don't like. Don't let it be you:eek:.

    Been there, took a long time for the skin to grow back:rolleyes:.
     
  27. Nov 10, 2019 #27

    Peanut

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    In my honest opinion... @Terri9630 @camo2460 @Cnsper @VThillman @Spikedriver @Supervisor42 @LadyLocust

    What I’ve learned through the years is that “Academia” is far more predictable than nature. They always have an agenda… In this case it’s rather obvious. Even more obvious are the finger prints of The Humane Society of the US all over the statements made by this poster in our forum… Project Coyote is the front group behind these statements here. We all know real source of the funding behind folks like this and their real goals.

    The poster isn’t here looking for a source of “sticky stuff”. The reason is to spread the propaganda of a leftist group of extremists… Just look and follow the names of the science advisory board listed in this pdf or look below at the screen saves of this group of people. Their backgrounds and affiliations are clear as well as their agenda. They might as well walk around with George Soros tattooed to their foreheads.

    http://www.projectcoyote.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/PC_SAB_Coyote-Facts_FINAL_2.5.19.pdf

    There is at least one group standing up to their extreme views… https://projectcoyotelies.com/

    Sorry, didn’t have time to search for more…

    IMHO

    Screenshot_2019-11-10 - 01.jpg Screenshot_2019-11-10 - 02.jpg
     
  28. Nov 10, 2019 #28

    Terri9630

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    We used them when the ticks were bad.
     
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  29. Nov 10, 2019 #29

    Supervisor42

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    Hard to believe they can put that much crap in only 4 pages:eek:.
    I only wish I could drop a herd of feral hogs in her neighborhood to see how well their no-kill, 'coexistence' :LOL:plan works out.:rolleyes:
    Since she's in California, they would fit right in with their homeless problem that is running completely out of control. Maybe fix that first?
    Hogs really like lots of garbage!:D
    One thing is certain, erudite, PHD, know-it-all people, that live in a concrete metropolis don't know poop.png about wildlife management.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  30. Nov 11, 2019 #30

    Grizzleyette___Adams

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    After reviewing this thread, I suspect that you really do not understand coyote behavior very well. Until you do, you will not be able to invent any product successful against this predator...no matter how many people's brains you pick. (Unless you have unlimited funds to keep throwing enough stuff/ideas at the wall until eventually, something sticks.) Knowing coyote behavior, really knowing it, would tell you that a deterrent/poison of this type is not feasible.

    May I suggest you spend a lot of quality time with nature documentaries and studying books about coyotes and domestic livestock such as cattle. If you plan on inventing something to benefit the livestock owner, it would help if you spent some hands-on time dealing with your target animals so that you fully understand why or why not something may or may not work.
     

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