Different Planting Methods

[JustMe]

There are lots of them from companion planting, permaculture, square foot gardening, crop rotation. intensive planting, etc.

I do alot of companion planting, and last year created some berms/swales of permaculture which do work well so far and have been trying to figure a good crop rotation plan that can work with the companion planting, which can be difficult since much of the companions I use together don't fall into most rotations since the 2 or more plant varieties of companions would nr planted at different times (or years) in a rotation system.

Does anyone else use any of these practices and how have they worked for you? If you do a 3 or 4 year crop rotation, which plan do you follow?


Some rotation plans are based on leaf & stems, roots, fruits, and others alliums, brassicas, legumes, etc.

 

[Caribou]

Very interesting, could you expand on your post?

 

[goshengirl]

Crop rotation is something I struggle with.

One thing I've considered is having only half of my beds in use each year, planting the unused beds to a cover crop. Then the next year switch beds. I use raised beds, and it is my goal to standardize my beds so that I can build a chicken tractor that will fit on a bed, and can be moved from bed to bed - then I can put the chickens to work on the unused/resting beds.

But while that moves the crops around, it's still not a great system. I'd like to have a crop rotation system that takes at least three years to complete.

And corn is my hardest crop, because that doesn't fit in the raised beds (and therefor that half on/half off system), and corn is such a heavy feeder that the soil really needs a chance to recover. I grow two crops of corn, a sweet corn and a flour corn. To prevent cross pollination, they have to be separated either by distance or by time. In the past I've separated by time - the sweet corn matures in 68 days, the flour corn in 110. By planting the sweet corn a week ahead of the flour corn, that's over six weeks of separation, and in the past that has worked out fine. But last summer was weird, and we ended up with some cross-pollination. Not the worse thing in the world, but I'd like to avoid that. But it's hard to find enough space to have two very separated corn crops, plus have more space to allow crop rotation.

Well I just sound like a grumpy old fart, don't I? lol
I'm interested in hearing what others do, too.

 

[Tirediron]

I would like to be helpful here but my part of gardens was always getting the soil ready, and keeping the slough water irrigation system operational.
one thing that really worked well was raised rows, made with a potato hiller,

 

[JustMe]

I would like to be helpful here but my part of gardens was always getting the soil ready, and keeping the slough water irrigation system operational.
one thing that really worked well was raised rows, made with a potato hiller,

Raised rows?? Do you mean just wide enough for a row of plants? Or a wider planting area....similar to a raised bed only made with soil but without the hard sides of lumber or bricks or other solid material to hold it together???

Prepping the soil can be a never ending job.

 

[JustMe]

Crop rotation is something I struggle with.

One thing I've considered is having only half of my beds in use each year, planting the unused beds to a cover crop. Then the next year switch beds. I use raised beds, and it is my goal to standardize my beds so that I can build a chicken tractor that will fit on a bed, and can be moved from bed to bed - then I can put the chickens to work on the unused/resting beds.

But while that moves the crops around, it's still not a great system. I'd like to have a crop rotation system that takes at least three years to complete.

And corn is my hardest crop, because that doesn't fit in the raised beds (and therefor that half on/half off system), and corn is such a heavy feeder that the soil really needs a chance to recover. I grow two crops of corn, a sweet corn and a flour corn. To prevent cross pollination, they have to be separated either by distance or by time. In the past I've separated by time - the sweet corn matures in 68 days, the flour corn in 110. By planting the sweet corn a week ahead of the flour corn, that's over six weeks of separation, and in the past that has worked out fine. But last summer was weird, and we ended up with some cross-pollination. Not the worse thing in the world, but I'd like to avoid that. But it's hard to find enough space to have two very separated corn crops, plus have more space to allow crop rotation.

Well I just sound like a grumpy old fart, don't I? lol
I'm interested in hearing what others do, too.

No you don't sound like a grumpy old fart.......actually it sounds like some of the struggles I've had trying to grow 2 types of corn. I also try for both sweet & flour corn and have relied mostly on timing. But I also plant the flour corn on the back side of my chicken coop that is about 8ft high at the top pitch. Thinking it would make for a good obstacle for any lingering pollen from the sweet corn. Seems to work, but the flour corn doesn't get as much attention as it should so has been something of a failure.

As for the crop rotation of your raised beds......just how many beds do you have total? There are rotation plan charts online. I have tried to follow a 3 year plan, but as I said before it's kind of hard when I also intermix the different crops (companion planting) together to know what direction to follow.

3 year plan....

1 type of 4 year plan.....

Another 4 year plan.......honestly this one is confusing to me cause it separates the onions & garlic as alliums instead of being included in the roots....and the roots include things like tomatoes & peppers that are actually fruit type crops.....plus in companion planting potatoes & tomatoes should not be planted too near each other because they are both of the same nightshade family. I think the previous 2 charts are much easier to consider when planning a rotation system

There are others, that include other mixes of crops but the idea is to plant the beds with similar crops, then each year move to the next bed. The idea is what each of the types of crops give and take from the soil and by moving them each year to a different bed that the previous crop had given & taken different nutrients from or to the soil and thereby naturally prepped the soil for the next different crop.......if any of that makes sense???

 

[JustMe]

Very interesting, could you expand on your post?

Dangerous words cause I could go on for days about gardening & different practices. But some is explained ^^^^ in the previous posts.

Companion planting is planting different types near each other for mutual benefit. pest control, growth habits, etc. Carrots love tomatoes is a good book about it and even includes basic enemies like onions or garlic with peas or beans and shouldn't be planted together or near each other

Rotational planting is to group your plantings according to type, then move them each year to give them the most benefit from the soil and it helps protect against the bad bugs and diseases.

Ruth Stout planting method is a form of permaculture, that is mostly about using lots of mulch to keep soil temps either warmer in cooler months or cooler in warmer months, helps retain moisture longer for less watering, and it breaks down to rejuvenate the soil of what the past crop used from it. So it's kinda like composting in place, instead of tending a compost bin or specific area....all or much of what is put into a compost pile or bin, is actually put directly on the planting bed to decompose and feed the soil directly.

There is alot of good information about permaculture and many experts to choose from if you're interested in finding out. I happened to stumble upon Geoff Lawton videos and learned much from there. He talks of berms & swales, which berms are the raised planting area and swales are lower, that trap water and nutrient & soil runoff that keeps it near the plants roots where it needs to be.

My main garden slopes from the back fence and year before last, when I was learning about this permaculture stuff, I realized it would make perfect sense in my situation so I created 6 raised berms for planting in a slight cupping with the swales dug out......basically narrow pathway along the length of the berms that keeps the water near the plants roots and the berms are covered with plenty of mulch that also traps water & creates good soil microbes, worms & good bug activity.

Also he talks of food forests and the health of soils in any forest or natural setting.....the tree canopy sheds leaves and whatnot that falls to the ground that is similar to mulching and it feeds the soil underneath and each year it continues to accumulate in layers that break down.

 

[joel]

"There are lots of them from companion planting, permaculture, square foot gardening, crop rotation. intensive planting, etc."

I have done them all, not lasagna beds or the raised bed that do not go down into the earth, I have done the double dug raised beds.
Double dug bed that are twelve year old & still growing plants year around.
Permaculture is a new name for many old thing & some new things, water conservation is one of the old things.
I tried the food forest & it did not work well with crops that like a lot of sun, but shade loving plant liked the layers.
I rotate more to fool bugs & nematodes, then any other reason, in small farm/gardens good compost will keep the soil rich.
But if you want to rotate heavy feeder for light feeders, it is your garden. Best tomatoes I have ever grown was in a small 8' X 8' pin that had sit empty
for a 4 months. The soil was heavy on compost from the pigs, many would say to much compost, but the tomatoes grew up until the frost kill them.
The plants had blooms on the new growth when the frost sit in, first week of November.
I have used square foot garden & still plant garlic on six inch squares, I find I get bigger cloves/bulbs that way.
Companion planting, I grow cucumbers on the out side of my tomatoes cages, running beans up corn stalks & a few times I have done the three sisters.
I am going to try wood chip mulch with mushrooms & asparagus/ strawberries, now that I have a field cleared of stumps.
The hardwood chips is more for the mushrooms, then a mulch for the plants.
Ruth Stout is the greatest & many people have tried to hijack her garden technique.

 

[Patchouli]

Excellent thread. I still have an old book from Rodale Publishing that goes in to companion planting and crop rotation. And @joel I appreciate your comments on why you do things the way you do in gardening. Rotation to keep insects and nematodes at bay, check!

 

[joel]

I have about twenty of the Rodale book club books.

 

[JustMe]

Yes, I love the Rodale books. I have a few, I think. I know one is all about gardening & landscaping and I think I still have another about 'farming' or something like that. It had more information about raising & tending livestock, crops.,.just about everything. I'll have to look for it later and see if I do still have that one.


Once I found out about companion planting, I've stuck with that for years, But now I'm looking more at a rotational system, and it's hard to figure out where to put things that weren't there before. Atleast this year I should have a better jump start on it, with the main garden left alone and 3 new spots to grow in. Now I just have to figure out which spot is going to get all bulb crops, all the leaf & stem crops, then all the fruit & seed crops,,,,then go with a 3 year rotation to keep it simple........or maybe try a 4 year system and only plant grains in the main garden.

I have grown wheat, oats & barley several times, but only small plots of it since I don't have any special equipment to clean the seed and do it by hand......with wheat & barley I roll it on the table or counter to release the seed then pick them out. Very tedious work. Oats are more difficult since the seed is inside the dried flower. That I use my fingernail to hold the stem end to release the seed, then the other fingernail to scrape it out. I've tried to put any of them in a pillow case and run it over with the car tires, but the chaff and whatnot gets caught up in the cloth and doesn't always release the seeds. Does anyone have a better way of doing that???

 

[Patchouli]

It’s supposed to help to plant grain cover crops in a bed while it’s resting from veggie growing, that grains pull needed nutrients from deeper in the ground, making it richer for your veggies.
But I know nothing about grain harvest.

 

[JustMe]

It’s supposed to help to plant grain cover crops in a bed while it’s resting from veggie growing, that grains pull needed nutrients from deeper in the ground, making it richer for your veggies.
But I know nothing about grain harvest.

Agreed, and in some rotation systems grains are included in the mix just for that purpose

 

[JustMe]

So I've been doing more research about which plants to group together, then the order for rotation. It appears there are as many options as there are websites to tell you. It can get confusing to say the least.

There was only one site that I found, that said the main goal is to not plant the same crop in the same place every year, that also includes others of the same plant family.....such as not planting broccoli where you've already planted cabbage the previous year and of all places was from Australia.

The Vegie Guide: Crop Rotation - Fact Sheets - Gardening Australia - GARDENING AUSTRALIA (abc.net.au)

In their groupings or plant list, it didn't include some of the things I grow, like grains.....though corn is of the grain or grass family, but I don't have enough room to group it like this site suggested. So I kept looking further and found this for small gardens.......

Four-Bed Crop Rotation for Small Gardens | Almanac.com

Keeping in mind companion planting, things like the cabbage family can be planted with the onions in the same area, the carrot and beet families can be grown near or with the tomato or nightshade family. Peas, beans, corn & squashes together in another area.

The biggest obstacle I can find is with the onion family........do not plant with OR before peas, beans or potatoes. It is fine to plant onions after those crops have been harvested but not before, same if rotating......onions come after, not before. Also be wary of planting potatoes and tomatoes too close together. But other than that, it seems pretty easy.




Hopefully this may help anyone interested in trying a rotation system

 

[LadyLocust]

@JustMe I just found this fella & so far like the info. Ironically while I was so sick, I ran across a video of his on compost
I will link one here so you can see if any of it is helpful. I don't know now which one it was I watched about compost.

 

[JustMe]

@JustMe I just found this fella & so far like the info. Ironically while I was so sick, I ran across a video of his on compost
I will link one here so you can see if any of it is helpful. I don't know now which one it was I watched about compost.

Where is he that so much can grow thru the winter??? Especially if the rabbits & crows get much of his efforts.

 

[LadyLocust]

Where is he that so much can grow thru the winter??? Especially if the rabbits & crows get much of his efforts.

He is in England & in one of the videos does make comment to the mild winter so far & how surprised he is. He obviously doesn't have voles eating his produce from underneath! I'd be glad to lend him ours!

 

[JustMe]

He is in England & in one of the videos does make comment to the mild winter so far & how surprised he is. He obviously doesn't have voles eating his produce from underneath! I'd be glad to lend him ours!

OK, he did say that in the video and mentioned both England and Canada, but I couldn't tell for sure which one he was at. But I do like how he has those planting beds and is something I keep working toward


He can have the neighborhood squirrels too

 

[Solar Geek]

I have to be honest; I have tried Ruth Stout and LOVED it with 29 huge mounded beds, no till and on-- until the voles found me. We have a 6' chain link fence to keep deer and other animals out and also attached to that fence chicken wire 2 ft above the ground and then folded and 2 ft outward underground so that all digging animals (except tiny voles) gave up. Really liked her method.

So then we went to almost no till raised beds (purchased 12" high and 36" high units, again 30 beds) and put 1/4" hardware cloth down, then cardboard, then set the beds up on that then filled with lasagna type layers. So far so good. I do try to rotate each year but have not had the onions or garlic really affect any future plantings? So I just rotate.

We are organic but surrounded by 1000s of acres of potato, corn and soy growers, all roundup ready and GMO. So the bugs find my little garden on 50 acres and feast. Birds too but I can handle them with netting.

BUT nothing stops Japanese beetles. No companion plants work so I gave them up. Hard to believe they like those marigolds as everything else leaves them alone and stays away.. I seriously tried them all at one time or another over the 8 years. I have done intense research on the beetles/grubs and even the much promoted "milky spore' solution takes up to 5 years to work...

My new thought this year after studying the Jap beetles at work is to buy tons of a fabric called "tulle" at JoAnn fabrics and cover my beds before planting. The grubs are too big to get through it. It will not stop them trying to eat the established plant roots but I plant so many (200-400 tomatoe plants per year) that losing a few is fine. It is the adult attacks on all the adult mature plants in late July/early August where my losses mount. As the plants get big I will lay more tulle over taller stakes in each bed like mosquito netting. Lets in sun and water but not any adult beetles hopefully. Yes this will be tedious and hard to maintain with the wind tunnel that is our property (7 cleared acres for pond, orchard and gardens/lawn/house) but I want to try it at least on most the beds.

If you know of a companion plant that will scare the Jap beetles away, please let us know.

 

[JustMe]

I have to be honest; I have tried Ruth Stout and LOVED it with 29 huge mounded beds, no till and on-- until the voles found me. We have a 6' chain link fence to keep deer and other animals out and also attached to that fence chicken wire 2 ft above the ground and then folded and 2 ft outward underground so that all digging animals (except tiny voles) gave up. Really liked her method.

So then we went to almost no till raised beds (purchased 12" high and 36" high units, again 30 beds) and put 1/4" hardware cloth down, then cardboard, then set the beds up on that then filled with lasagna type layers. So far so good. I do try to rotate each year but have not had the onions or garlic really affect any future plantings? So I just rotate.

We are organic but surrounded by 1000s of acres of potato, corn and soy growers, all roundup ready and GMO. So the bugs find my little garden on 50 acres and feast. Birds too but I can handle them with netting.

BUT nothing stops Japanese beetles. No companion plants work so I gave them up. Hard to believe they like those marigolds as everything else leaves them alone and stays away.. I seriously tried them all at one time or another over the 8 years. I have done intense research on the beetles/grubs and even the much promoted "milky spore' solution takes up to 5 years to work...

My new thought this year after studying the Jap beetles at work is to buy tons of a fabric called "tulle" at JoAnn fabrics and cover my beds before planting. The grubs are too big to get through it. It will not stop them trying to eat the established plant roots but I plant so many (200-400 tomatoe plants per year) that losing a few is fine. It is the adult attacks on all the adult mature plants in late July/early August where my losses mount. As the plants get big I will lay more tulle over taller stakes in each bed like mosquito netting. Lets in sun and water but not any adult beetles hopefully. Yes this will be tedious and hard to maintain with the wind tunnel that is our property (7 cleared acres for pond, orchard and gardens/lawn/house) but I want to try it at least on most the beds.

If you know of a companion plant that will scare the Jap beetles away, please let us know.

Yikes, sounds like you have alot of planting area to try to control. I don't think I've had problems here with the Japanese beetles, but I did do a search......

How To Get Rid Of Japanese Beetles Naturally - The Backyard Bloom

• Use companion planting with catnip, chives, marigolds, tansy, and garlic which repel Japanese Beetles.
• Mechanical traps that are specifically made to trap Japanese Beetles.
• Use Geraniums as a trap plant. The beetles fall after eating these and you can dispose of them once they fall.
• Neem Oil can be used for both the adult beetles and the grubs in the soil.
• Dawn (or other dish soap), water, and a bucket. Mix the water and soap in the bucket and go knock all the beetles into it.
• Spray dish soap and water on your lawn and garden soil. This will bring up the grubs and the birds get a nice snack.
• Garden Row Covers can keep the beetles off your plants. Just be aware this also keeps pollinators off your plants too.

How To Get Rid Of Japanese Beetles Naturally - 3 Secret Tips That Work! (oldworldgardenfarms.com)

• (1) Avoiding the use of Beetle traps
• (2) Hand picking the beetles into a soapy solution
• (3) Creating an effective deterrent spray from Eastern Red Cedar

21 Natural Ways to Get Rid of Japanese Beetles - Dre Campbell Farm

^^^ this site has lots of options, almost too many to list here.


Even though they say planting marigold or other companions to repel the bugs and you've not had success with marigold.....I'm wondering if the garlic or cedar might work better, or maybe the neem oil??? With your gardens being so large, maybe the DE would be an easier option?

 

[JustMe]

@JustMe I just found this fella & so far like the info. Ironically while I was so sick, I ran across a video of his on compost
I will link one here so you can see if any of it is helpful. I don't know now which one it was I watched about compost.

Here, I found it and watched.....


Making compost from garden and other wastes, the principles and some results - YouTube


and also the one about starting the no dig.,,,,,,


Start Out No Dig, one method with cardboard and compost - YouTube




I see all these wonderfully laid out gardens and how well they are kept and so beautiful & lush.......then I look at my haphazard monstrosity and cringe. But I am determined that it will look nice and provide an abundance of all things planted, not just some. Always a work in progress

 

[LadyLocust]

Here, I found it and watched.....


Making compost from garden and other wastes, the principles and some results - YouTube


and also the one about starting the no dig.,,,,,,


Start Out No Dig, one method with cardboard and compost - YouTube




I see all these wonderfully laid out gardens and how well they are kept and so beautiful & lush.......then I look at my haphazard monstrosity and cringe. But I am determined that it will look nice and provide an abundance of all things planted, not just some. Always a work in progress

I keep in mind he is a pro & has a full time asst. but will glean what I can. He said in spring 3" of good compost to cover and in autumn, another 1" of fibrous compost. He also says he doesn't worry about what the plants need. He worries about what the soil needs and the plants will be fine. That makes sense to me. My hope this year is to pack on the compost then see if I can keep up. I don't have all that well laid out space & am not growing a market garden, but will see what I can do. Hopefully we will have a more "normal" year in the way of weather and the plants won't just scorch under a heat dome.

 

[JustMe]

I keep in mind he is a pro & has a full time asst. but will glean what I can. He said in spring 3" of good compost to cover and in autumn, another 1" of fibrous compost. He also says he doesn't worry about what the plants need. He worries about what the soil needs and the plants will be fine. That makes sense to me. My hope this year is to pack on the compost then see if I can keep up. I don't have all that well laid out space & am not growing a market garden, but will see what I can do. Hopefully we will have a more "normal" year in the way of weather and the plants won't just scorch under a heat dome.

Yes, weather plays a huge part. Last year I learned a few things about how my garden is set up and how it works or fails under the extreme heat. It is situated at the north and east corner and along the north property fence. So it gets all day southern sun exposure, other than any shade provided by a cherry tree that only covers to about the midway point or less......so everything outside of that got cooked, including my strawberry bed that was along that fence. I had been meaning to move them anyway, but that prompted action sooner than later. They are now in tires that are north/south, instead of east/west. The tires will also get hot, but they can be painted or otherwise covered to keep them a bit cooler.

Compost yes and mulch too is supposed to help keep the soil at more moderate temps. If I remember correctly last year I put down about 7 bales of straw as mulch, but that was all around the yard too, I'm thinking I'll need that much just for the veggie garden. I am also tempted to get another chip drop and use that as well. Last year 20 yards didn't go as far as I had hoped, but that was the first time I did that. If I do it again, it shouldn't take as much.......maybe

 

[Solar Geek]

@JustMe thank you for those ideas but all have been tried here. first off a warning! DO NOT USE THE TRAPS!!
It is well known now that those traps attract other ones because as you know when they find a source of food or a dead beetle, they send out a phermone and call thousands more.
Luckily I was warned before I put them up. If you hate your neighbors you could put them on their property and then maybe you’d lose your Japanese beetles to your neighbors ha ha ha just kidding!


Central Wisconsin has been battling Japanese beetles seriously for over years, & before that it was just occasional mentions. I have spoken to all of the big farmers.

While Spinosad (approved for organic garden) will contain them for a short amount of time, how much of that you really want to spray on your broccoli leaves, cucumbers, &every single leaf in your organic garden?
Neem oil didn’t work. They ate all the leaves off my fruit trees. Organic vegetable spray but all of the top chemical companies did not work but was expensive to try.

I am trying “mechanical methods” this year as I mentioned, as I have tried every single one of the methods you suggested over the course of the 9 years on some of each of the beds or all of them.

Perhaps those methods work on smaller gardens. This year they loved my hydrangeas but it’s not keep them away from my vegetable garden. Thank you for your try at helping!

 

[Neb]

@JustMe thank you for those ideas but all have been tried here. first off a warning! DO NOT USE THE TRAPS!!
It is well known now that those traps attract other ones because as you know when they find a source of food or a dead beetle, they send out a phermone and call thousands more.
Luckily I was warned before I put them up. If you hate your neighbors you could put them on their property and then maybe you’d lose your Japanese beetles to your neighbors ha ha ha just kidding!


Central Wisconsin has been battling Japanese beetles seriously for over years, & before that it was just occasional mentions. I have spoken to all of the big farmers.

While Spinosad (approved for organic garden) will contain them for a short amount of time, how much of that you really want to spray on your broccoli leaves, cucumbers, &every single leaf in your organic garden?
Neem oil didn’t work. They ate all the leaves off my fruit trees. Organic vegetable spray but all of the top chemical companies did not work but was expensive to try.

I am trying “mechanical methods” this year as I mentioned, as I have tried every single one of the methods you suggested over the course of the 9 years on some of each of the beds or all of them.

Perhaps those methods work on smaller gardens. This year they loved my hydrangeas but it’s not keep them away from my vegetable garden. Thank you for your try at helping!

Praying mantis?

They seem to keep them under control in my garden.

Ben

 

[joel]

I have collard greens live for four years, hot summer is when you need to water or they will die.

 

[JustMe]

@JustMe I just found this fella & so far like the info. Ironically while I was so sick, I ran across a video of his on compost
I will link one here so you can see if any of it is helpful. I don't know now which one it was I watched about compost.

i found another one on compost that he explains in better detail of what it takes, how it's used, how much is needed, etc. and he addresses a common misconception about compost........it's not to feed your plants, but to feed the soil that grows the plants. Interesting.

Charles Dowding shows compost qualities, when to spread, and how much! - YouTube

 

[LadyLocust]

i found another one on compost that he explains in better detail of what it takes, how it's used, how much is needed, etc. and he addresses a common misconception about compost........it's not to feed your plants, but to feed the soil that grows the plants. Interesting.

Charles Dowding shows compost qualities, when to spread, and how much! - YouTube

That's the one. I thought it made sense.

 

[JustMe]

That's the one. I thought it made sense.

I thought so too and it's good timing to find it. I'm starting new compost this year in a new area.

Even though I've been doing all this stuff like gardening & composting for years I am happy to learn new things about it. In the past, my efforts hae been more haphazard I guess, with varying results. Some great, some ok and some failures and every year I add something different I've learned about to get more success and less failures. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Hopefully his information will help to fine tune what I've been doing for the better. IDK maybe I just like playing in the dirt.