Disaster First Aid Kit

[The Innkeeper]

I really want to learn more about using medicinal plants. I would love to see a thread where folks could share information with those of us who are borderline ignorant!

And for those of us who are clueless on the subject

 

[Flight]

And for those of us who are clueless on the subject

That would be me. Lol

 

[Sentry18]

That would be me. Lol

I think Bob was right, it's "us". Probably a lot of us.

 

[Patchouli]

Since you're talking about herbal medicine...
Not sure where to put this, I don't think I've seen it mentioned anywhere.
Now, just because you might think you are all finished with having children, that doesn't mean that someone will never stumble onto your doorstep in labor.
There's a first time for many things.
Some of us may feel inclined to prepare for such an event and have the right items on hand. Bless you if you do.

You do not have to spend a bunch of money on buying a birthing kit; an internet search and some clicking around can show you what items would be handy for such an event and easily picked up at the drugstore.

 

[Drfacefixer]

So here's something to discuss: We use Celox coated dressings in our trauma kits. The Celox helps speed up clotting. But we are always trained that after applying Celox powder or Celox coated dressings to get the patient to the ER as soon as possible. Which is great when you have an ER and a Trauma Doc. But what if the SHTF and they are not available? Is it normal wound care and do you risk cleaning off the Celox?

We stopped using Quick Clot some years ago because our paramedic trained officers advised it (IIRC) was not an organic product, where Celox is and can absorb into the body and breakdown into cellulose.

Celox is mainly Chitosan which is crustaceans shells...same thing as hemcon. It won’t break down and be absorbed. It will either be removed and the underlying bleeding must be addressed or the hard anaerobic mass of clot, Chitosan, wound debris will become necrotic and the infection will eventually break it down.

You will have to deal with the wound at some time unless it’s a minimal size.

 

[Weedygarden]

That is a great list, Coot, and the additions made by others help make it even better. I want to consolidate all the items into one list and then be able to print it out. I am about to head to bed, but I will work on that tomorrow. We can do files, can't we? Or a PDF? And where is that print button?

 

[DrPrepper]

So here's something to discuss: We use Celox coated dressings in our trauma kits. The Celox helps speed up clotting. But we are always trained that after applying Celox powder or Celox coated dressings to get the patient to the ER as soon as possible. Which is great when you have an ER and a Trauma Doc. But what if the SHTF and they are not available? Is it normal wound care and do you risk cleaning off the Celox?

We stopped using Quick Clot some years ago because our paramedic trained officers advised it (IIRC) was not an organic product, where Celox is and can absorb into the body and breakdown into cellulose.

This thread made me want to see what the celox company recommended for removal. According to the Celox web page, "In cases of emergency bleeding, Celox should be left in the wound to stop bleeding until the patient is seen by medical personnel. It can then be easily removed. Remove as much of the gel like clot as possible by hand, then irrigate the wound with water or saline. In cases of minor bleeding Celox can be removed once the wound has stabilized. This can be as short as 10 minutes. Irrigate with water or saline. Chitosan is a natural polysaccharide (polymer made of sugars) and made of basic sugars (glucosamine & n-acetyl glucosamine). Celox™ does NOT use non degrading procoagulant minerals or nano particles such as kaolin, smectite or zeolite, which will remain in the body indefinitely unless physically removed." (http://www.celoxmedical.com/na/faq/)

Here is the Safety data sheet for the granules: http://www.celoxmedical.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/SDS-CELOX-Granules-PRODUCT-Final-2014.pdf

I would guess though, if you've got a major arterial tear, you don't want to just rip out the celox without having the means to control bleeding that reoccurs when the clot is disturbed.

 

[DrPrepper]

I'm not a surgeon, nor do I play one on TV, and I've not been to a Holiday Inn Express lately, but in over 30 years of practice in a variety of environments, I can tell you getting control of arterial bleeding is not nearly as easy as the TV or apocalyptic novels make it out to be. If you just clamp off the artery, you've got to consider what you are starving of blood downstream. Suturing a torn artery is not something that is easy to do- I'm not sure I would be able to do it unless it was a choice of trying or knowing without a doubt the person would die. Now, if it minor arterial tears, clamping or cauterizing the tears may work after removing the celox, but remember even tiny arteries can bleed like the dickens. Dr. Facefixer, as a surgeon, can you give any recommendations of what a semi-trained (first aid or EMT) person could/should attempt in a SHTF situation where a surgeon/ trained provider is not available? To all reading this, I am speaking hypothetically about a non-existing situation and am not requesting specific medical advice. (gotta get that disclaimer in there!)

 

[backlash]

My brother had a fistula for his dialysis in his lower arm.
It ruptured and he was squirting blood everywhere.
My wife applied pressure and called 911.
The EMTs were able to get it stopped pretty quick.
The next time it happened the EMT had a very hard time getting it stopped.
He finally put a BP Cuff on his arm and pumped it up till the bleeding stopped.
That destroyed the fistula but saved his life.
The sidewalk in front of the house was covered in blood and the EMT said he had been an Army medic and he had never seen so much blood and the guy live.
This was the 1st time.

That is a very nice Fireman cleaning up the blood

 

[Sentry18]

My brother had a fistula for his dialysis in his lower arm.
It ruptured and he was squirting blood everywhere.
My wife applied pressure and called 911.
The EMTs were able to get it stopped pretty quick.
The next time it happened the EMT had a very hard time getting it stopped.
He finally put a BP Cuff on his arm and pumped it up till the bleeding stopped.
That destroyed the fistula but saved his life.
The sidewalk in front of the house was covered in blood and the EMT said he had been an Army medic and he had never seen so much blood and the guy live.
This was the 1st time.

That is a very nice Fireman cleaning up the blood

Your images would not load for some reason.

 

[backlash]

Your images would not load for some reason.

Well I need to work that out.
Suggestions?
Figured it out.

 

[Sentry18]

Well I need to work that out.
Suggestions?

It looked like you were using a google based host. I would just save the pics to your hard drive and use the upload file button.

 

[Drfacefixer]

I'm not a surgeon, nor do I play one on TV, and I've not been to a Holiday Inn Express lately, but in over 30 years of practice in a variety of environments, I can tell you getting control of arterial bleeding is not nearly as easy as the TV or apocalyptic novels make it out to be. If you just clamp off the artery, you've got to consider what you are starving of blood downstream. Suturing a torn artery is not something that is easy to do- I'm not sure I would be able to do it unless it was a choice of trying or knowing without a doubt the person would die. Now, if it minor arterial tears, clamping or cauterizing the tears may work after removing the celox, but remember even tiny arteries can bleed like the dickens. Dr. Facefixer, as a surgeon, can you give any recommendations of what a semi-trained (first aid or EMT) person could/should attempt in a SHTF situation where a surgeon/ trained provider is not available? To all reading this, I am speaking hypothetically about a non-existing situation and am not requesting specific medical advice. (gotta get that disclaimer in there!)

You really need to have an idea of which artery it is and if there is collateral supply. If it was a superficial vessel on a forearm or leg, then palpate the other surfaces and for pulses distal to the injury while the bleeding is slowed or stopped with Just the dressing ie NO tourniquet. If you can feel distal pulses and it’s been some time (hours) after injury, then you can assess that the limb has other means of blood flow if you did have to tie off that vessel or cauterize. Before doing anything, take the time to familiarize yourself with the anatomy and plan. Have a plan in place and a backup plan for that and then a few more.

Ready a tourniquet a few inches above the wound but don’t put it up. Have all your instruments readied and understand four things are going to happen if you poke this skunk -
1. your either going to have a stable clot north of you and minimal bleeding. In this case you clean and dress the wound. A bleeding bed of tissue ( but not too much) is healthy. The tissue is perfusing. Now keep it clean and controlled and pray.

2. It starts squirting again and your going to isolate the vessel with hemostats and tie it off with a sterile suture that’s strong enough to stay put and staying there forever. Usually it’s 3.0 silk ties because they are easy to handle and don’t slip. Grab just the vessel. You cant tie around a hunk of meat. If you pinch a chunk of meat and the bleeding stops but you’ve got nothing to tie off you have three choices.
A. Open the faucet and try again.
B. Play Surgeon and Bluntly Dissect away some of the tissue until you have the vessel, tie it off and save the day.
C. Proceed to choice 3.

3. You realize you suck at tying off miniature firehoses but your pretty good at torching things. Electrocautry is preferred to thermal, but go with what you have. Pay attention to your surrounding. If you used booze as an “ anesthetic “ or “ antiseptic” , make sure you are not going to make you or your patient a crispy critter. Get all flammables away. Irrigate and wash the wound now while bleeding is controlled. Now, Gently cauterize the tissue that’s bleeding. Don’t go hog wild thinking your sterilizing the wound. You are damaging it. Focus the heat at the top of the hemastats. Do not brush away the char or the bleeding will start again. Then it’s time to remove the clamp and see what you’ve got either, it’s time to dress it up, or continue below. Common sense makes you think that maybe putting up the tourniquet first is a good idea... but what you while find is that it makes it hard to distinguish the gusher from the capillary bed.

4. Holy hell. You don’t want to be here. The bleeding won’t stop. You’ve tried suturing but that’s not working. You’ve burnt the devil and a demon or two out of your buddies arm and it’s still gushing. Applying direct pressure will buy you moments to think, putting up the tourniquet will also help slow the bleeding, but does so at increasing the pain level. Do it if necessary because all bleeding stops eventually and you don’t want to still be looking for a vessel when eventually comes.
As a last resort, you can put in a whip suture to compress the tissue that the vessel is lying with in, but it has risk. Vessels run with nerves and close to other vessels. If you nick another vessel, eventually comes faster. If you compress a nerve, you may have issues later, and then there is always the risk of staunching too much of that collateral blood supply we first discussed. But if you are all you got, it might be better than wearing all your buddies blood.

Best of luck.

Most of these vessels would be 0.5- 1.5mm in nature. Anything bigger would likely be a significant vessel which would have major repercussions downstream. Those have the pressures to expand tissue compartments and put a lot of blood in spaces. Something like a torn femoral artery can pump all five pints of blood in your thigh and you may not even see much bleeding. Dealing with something like that, needs prompt action and an urgent temperament to find that vessel without hesitation to surgically enlarge the wound.

 

[DrPrepper]

Thank you Dr. Facefixer! I really appreciate your explanations.

I know that a lot of people stock sutures in med kits, but I wonder how many people know the different uses for the different types of suture - that helps if you are going to stock to have the right tools for the job! I found a good article on Medscape that is not too technical that describes the many different sutures and how they are used. No point to stocking sutures that you either can't use or that won't do what you are expecting them to do! It also explains the different types of needles (cutting, reverse cutting, etc....) and alternative skin closure devices. Here is the web site if you don't want to download the PDF: https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1127693-overview

 

[The Innkeeper]

We used to do minor stitching on our critters with dental floss and a curved needle. Not the prettiest but it worked well.

 

[backlash]

We used to do minor stitching on our critters with debpntal floss and a curved needle. Not the prettiest but it worked well.

I sewed up a piglet once with plane needle and thread.
It was all my Aunt had so we used it.
Pig live and got big enough to eat so I guess it turned out OK.

 

[The Innkeeper]

a couple of MDs have told me that chicken drumsticks and oranges make good practice suture pieces. I have tried the chicken never tried an orange

 

[Drfacefixer]

Pigs feet. More realistic than chicken. Oranges, no

You want something with a similar thickness in connective tissue and strong fascia. Chicken has really thick waxy skin. Ok for superficial sutures. But pigs feet will mimic a more realistic closure and youll see able to what happens when your sutures don’t have equal bites. Much better for practicing deep dermals and closures where you may need to approximate muscle prior to closure.

 

[The Innkeeper]

Pigs feet. More realistic than chicken. Oranges, no

You want something with a similar thickness in connective tissue and strong fascia. Chicken has really thick waxy skin. Ok for superficial sutures. But pigs feet will mimic a more realistic closure and youll see able to what happens when your sutures don’t have equal bites. Much better for practicing deep dermals and closures where you may need to approximate muscle prior to closure.

Good to know. All the sewing I have done on critters has been fairly superficial.

 

[Resto]

So here's something to discuss: We use Celox coated dressings in our trauma kits. The Celox helps speed up clotting. But we are always trained that after applying Celox powder or Celox coated dressings to get the patient to the ER as soon as possible. Which is great when you have an ER and a Trauma Doc. But what if the SHTF and they are not available? Is it normal wound care and do you risk cleaning off the Celox?

We stopped using Quick Clot some years ago because our paramedic trained officers advised it (IIRC) was not an organic product, where Celox is and can absorb into the body and breakdown into cellulose.

Ive always been Leary of clotting Agents. They must be a pain to clean up and make Tissue Repairs. Im sure they are great for somebody that's Bleeding Out, with no other alternative.

 

[The Innkeeper]

Ive always been Leary of clotting Agents. They must be a pain to clean up and make Tissue Repairs. Im sure they are great for somebody that's Bleeding Out, with no other alternative.

I have read a lot about sugar being used during the civil war (I hate that term)

 

[DrPrepper]

I have read a lot about sugar being used during the civil war (I hate that term)

You mean the War of Northern Aggression, right? :thumbs up:

 

[Patchouli]

Herbalists swear by cayenne to stop bleeding. Some have experience with yarrow, used in the Civil War.
Cayenne works. Helpful to have a tincture of it onhand as well as in powder form to help with heart attacks and bleeding.
Herbalists have cayenne in their first aid kits. I ran out of mine. Need to replenish the kit.

 

[Peanut]

I use yarrow often, have a little bottle on my bathroom vanity for when I cut myself shaving. I used it once to save a donkey’s life when he was bleeding to death. Yarrow – Achillea millefolium, it’s named after Achilles, the ancient Greek warrior who according to Homer used it to treat wounds during the Trojan wars.

A friend of mine, Sam Coffman. He was a special forces medic in the 80’s. As such he was taught plant medicine before missions in case his medical supplies were destroyed. He’s an herbalist now and does disaster relief and training. He helped me treat a snake bite once using plant medicine, a copperhead.

He sells emergency medicine kits (plant medicine) to support his charity. You might want to check them out… At least go through the list of plants used and some of the gear.

https://thehumanpath.net/

https://herbalfirstaidgear.com/product/full-sized-herbal-first-aid-pack/

He’s been working in Puerto Rico since the hurricane doing very good work at no charge.

 

[Drfacefixer]

Our newer hemostatic agents are sterile microspheres of ( drumroll).....potato starch. It works great. Cayenne is eh... mishandled information. Just a quick google states this:

“Cayenne is a strong stimulant; it speeds up the heart rate and carries the blood throughout the body, balancing the circulation. Cayenne has a hemostatic impact, instantly stops the bleeding and helps the recovery in patients that suffered a heart attack.”

This stimulating the heart chronotropically is exactly what you wouldn’t want to do during a heart attack. Everything we do during an MI is geared toward reducing oxygen demand on the already ischemic heart. At certain doses it can be a vasodilator which is why some say it helps angina.... but some also say it helps migraines which are due to vasodilation of the brain vessels...so again a conundrum.

Is it hemostatic?Pretty much any finely ground spice in your rack is. If it was awesome as a hemostatic agent, it wouldn’t be a secret, someone would have bastardized the hell out of it and made billions. One of the obvious problems with it is that it evokes an initial dose dependent inflammatory response ...ie...the “balancing circulation” above...you don’t necessary want vascular congestion hanging out at the site of injury.

Don’t get me wrong it has a lot of great anti inflammatory effects going for it and I try to get it in my diet all the time like any other super food. But wouldn’t count on it to save my live during a heart attack or a massive hemorrhage.

If your going to get crazy in the pantry making your own dressings, just throw some of Idaho’s best flakes in that cut. It will do a better job and not sting the b’jesus out of you.

 

[Peanut]

just throw some of Idaho’s best flakes in that cut. It will do a better job and not sting the b’jesus out of you.

Now that’s funny! I wouldn’t reach for cayenne either except for my eggs at breakfast. But yarrow is another story… Since ancient times warriors have used it to stop bleeding. The Greeks and the Chinese wrote about it. For just as long, young women have used yarrow to help them get pregnant. I have seen yarrow do both things. It’s a complicated plant.

Potatoes have been used in medicine for a long time. I bet the Inca’s figured out a few uses. As a young man I was a welder, used to get flash burns to my eyes. All that was needed was slices of potato over my eyes for about an hour. It would pull out the “burn” for lack of a medical term. My eyes would be fine afterwards. I know of 3 plants that will “pull” or “draw out” fever or venom and heal at the same time. The potato is one of them.

 

[Patchouli]

I disagree, but you go ahead. I would count on it to save my life and used it with someone who was bleeding a bleed that wouldn't stop. It may be a stimulant but I didn't find that it ever sped up my heart rate, but the opposite. I use it in capsule form as well.
As has been mentioned, this is not medical advice.
http://www.herballegacy.com/Heart.html

 

[CluelessKai]

Now that’s funny! I wouldn’t reach for cayenne either except for my eggs at breakfast. But yarrow is another story… Since ancient times warriors have used it to stop bleeding. The Greeks and the Chinese wrote about it. For just as long, young women have used yarrow to help them get pregnant. I have seen yarrow do both things. It’s a complicated plant.

Potatoes have been used in medicine for a long time. I bet the Inca’s figured out a few uses. As a young man I was a welder, used to get flash burns to my eyes. All that was needed was slices of potato over my eyes for about an hour. It would pull out the “burn” for lack of a medical term. My eyes would be fine afterwards. I know of 3 plants that will “pull” or “draw out” fever or venom and heal at the same time. The potato is one of them.

When my dad was little, Gramma was heating water on the woodstove for laundry, he was playing. As she was carrying it to the porch, he ran into her. She dumped the whole pot on him. His aunt's came and they sliced potatoes to put on his burns for hours. He never had any scars.

 

[The Innkeeper]

You mean the War of Northern Aggression, right? :thumbs up:

I’m from Canada we refer to it as the American civil war, although I can certainly see it being viewed as the war of Northern Agression.

 

[Weedygarden]

So this give ya a good point ta start from. Add more ta it as ya feel the need an get the skills. Also, ya need ta research thins what don't make sense ta ya.

Black Drawing Salve – This will draw out splinters and such

I have looked for this in pharmacies and didn't have much luck. I asked a pharmacist about it and he ordered in something that he transferred to a pill type bottle. I just googled it and this is what I found. There are several options, but this looks the most promising. I am sure there are other options, but I am curious what others have or where they have found it. The thing is, it works. If you have a boil or some kind of infected spot, it will draw the infection out.

One name for it is ichthamol. I have heard you can find it a farm supply stores for animals, but it will work on humans.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ichthamm...7161&wl11=online&wl12=644332845&wl13=&veh=sem