Electric Cars

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Caribou

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Just another reason not to go electric: ( 1 minute 15 sec. video )
What you see in this video is an electric car at a charging station with a shorting cell setting off all the rest. It's a chain reaction from the first to the fiery end of the car. Eventually all the cars in that charging line were destroyed.

Note the time it took to destroy 3 cars, 1.15 minutes. The first car was destroyed in about 38 seconds. The fire cannot be extinguished with water. No fire department will approach a burning battery-powered car because of the toxic gasses produced during the fire. No recycling place will take the car's remains because of the toxic chemicals the batteries contain.
You own it!
More info on the fire is available in this article.
 

Supervisor42

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Naaa, a little Armor-All and that will polish right out! :thumbs:
No evil hydrocarbons were used!
No carbon emissions!
Saving the planet!flower70.gif

Having worked with battery-powered motive equipment since the mid-80's, we learned decades ago what happens when a charger transformer shorts between primary and secondary windings and puts high-voltage AC on a battery instead of DC.
Doesn't matter what kind of battery, the result is the same:
0046.gif
 

joel

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In fork lifts are safer then this, never had to evacuate the warehouse, did have a exhaust fan to remove charging fumes. Looks like someone did not have safety in place.
 

UrbanHunter

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I think the big difference is the battery chemistry, on old batteries there was a small volume of Hydrogen which pops nicely when abused but the lead plates just melt, when Lithium-Ion batteries are abused they have a lot of chemical energy stored and they burn well.
 

SheepDog

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Lithium burns and in charging and discharging it grows dendrites that are crystalline extensions of the lithium that will short and start burning.
Lead/acid batteries produce explosive gases and will blow up if a spark ignites the gases.
If you are exposed to either it can cause death and destruction. As they say in rocketry, what happened was an unexpected rapid disassembly of the device. ;)
 

UrbanHunter

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Okay, now you got my engineer's hat light bulb on.
Lets keep it simple the volume of our batteries is fixed at one cubic foot.
Assuming:
The hydrogen is at room temperature, not under pressure and the whole battery is hydrogen (it's actually about 90% water and plates, but let's say it's all H2 gas) The lithium Ion battery is fully charged

The hydrogen has 317 BTUs to convert to heat energy
The Lithium Ion Battery has 64,697 BTUs to convert to heat

Remember this is for a fixed volume 1 Sq Ft.....

Rapidly converting either to heat will be exciting!
 

SheepDog

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You're right Hunter, either one is exciting. All the excitement of the lead/acid will be over very fast while you can sit and enjoy the lithium fire for a longer time. In my training I watched films of lead/acid battery explosions but it wasn't until I was driving down the road and had a battery blow up that I fully understood the concept. Hopefully I will never experience a lithium fire. :)
 

UrbanHunter

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I've seen both:
The lead acid battery blew the hood open(ish) on the car.
The lithium Ion battery burned for days and kept re-igniting itself (keeping the fire crew busy over the weekend). The one I saw was fully charged when it gave way, the fire crew had to come back 3 times, finally they put a hose running to a sprayer at the vehicle, it was a week before anyone was willing to move the vehicle (pile of melted metal).
Lead Acid Battery failure
1621617937625.png

Car having lithium Ion battery failure:
1621618117623.png
 
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Supervisor42

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I've seen both:
The lead acid battery blew the hood open(ish) on the car.
The lithium Ion battery burned for days and kept re-igniting itself (keeping the fire crew busy over the weekend). The one I saw was fully charged when it gave way, the fire crew had to come back 3 times, finally they put a hose running to a sprayer at the vehicle, it was a week before anyone was willing to move the vehicle (pile of melted metal).
Lead Acid Battery failure
View attachment 66960

Car having lithium Ion battery failure:
View attachment 66961
Now you are just not doing justice to the lead-acid battery.NoDeal.gif
Blow up some 2,000-pound ones! :oops:
We don't know nuthin' about thoseNoDeal.gif.
Nope!


They blow up real good. :thumbs:
 

viking

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This is why I have an old 120 VAC computer fan pulling air from under the floor of the solar battery shed, it keeps constant positive air pressure in the shed and just behind the battery bank are two screened holes in the wall behind the batteries to dump the hydrogen gases from charging and discharging to the outside.
 

rusty

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So you burn more oil to provide power to charge batteries to cut oil burning?:oops:
 

Supervisor42

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So you burn more oil to provide power to charge batteries to cut oil burning?:oops:
Lots more. That's what basically happens.
They find out that wind and solar can't make a fraction of what they need.
So, instead of burning fuel in an engine that directly turns the wheels of a car, they go with this:

Burn fuel to heat water into steam, use the steam to drive a generator, pass the electricity over miles of lines (with loss), thru transformers (with loss), thru more wires to hundreds of houses (with loss), into another transformer (with loss) to charge the batteries in a car. (this is not efficient either). Then the batteries turn the wheels on the car (at less than 90% efficiency).
But, we're saving the planet!!!:woo hoo::huggs:
 

UrbanHunter

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@Supervisor42 you are just being negative.... If there were an issue with electric cars AOC and the lady running the Department of Energy would have told us....

Then again I'll bet they couldn't pass an IQ test without cheating.....
 

rusty

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Same people pushing electric cars are the same ones who pushed ethanol to get the farm vote.
List of the Disadvantages of Ethanol
  • It isn't as effective a fuel as traditional gasoline. ...
  • It is a corrosive fuel. ...
  • It requires a lot of cropland space. ...
  • It is costly. ...
  • Its use has resulted in a net emissions increase. ...
  • It has altered food production principles. ...
  • It is reliant on the quality of the growing season.
 

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There are a handful of major problems with EV's right now, but none of them are the fault of EV technology itself. We're in the infant phase, like the internet in the 90's or the personal computer in the 80's.

We live in a country designed around the use of combustion cars. It's going to take a while for infrastructure to catch up. That same infrastructure has been neglected and kept at a bare minimum of resiliency to keep profit margins high (see TX last winter, or CA every summer). Instantaneous EV adoption would cripple the national grid, but luckily we have at least a decade before EV's will have significant market share. Work arounds can be devised, because even if the grid operators were willing to make infrastructure improvements, we don't have the manufacturing capability to make it happen quick enough.

The EV tax on annual registrations is just misguided attempt to recoup lost gas-tax revenue. Kind of like how the gas-tax is a misguided attempt to get more revenue from the vehicles that cause the most damage, but instead penalize anybody with bad gas mileage. But nobody complains about that because it's "invisible", you don't see that line item on the receipt from the gas pump. Or some states charging a higher registration fee for a foreign brand car vs American brand car, even if that foreign car was built in the US and the "American" car was built in MX. If your EV/hybrid tax exceeds your gas savings then maybe you should have bought the gas version instead? We own a hybrid and pay an extra fee at renewals. The city MPG is so much better that we at least break even on bad years (like 2020 when we barely drove it). In a busy year we'll definitely come out ahead on gas savings. I personally believe gas tax should be replaced by an odometer fee based on the GVWR of your vehicle payable at registration renewal. My 4000lb 16 year old Jeep gets the same crappy mileage as a 3/4T pickup hauling a 20K pound trailer. Which one of us is doing more damage to the roads, and why should I be paying the same tax as the truck?

Yes, range and charge time suck compared to combustion. But when looking at the country as a whole, most people don't drive 100 miles in a day. So even a 200mi range car would be OK, even in winter most places. Most manufacturers have a goal of 8hours 0-100 charge time, which if you use some critical thinking means less than 8 hours if you didn't use the whole thing. 20-80% is the "fast charging" window. For road trips, using Tesla as an example, you can get to a destination faster if you stop charging at 80% and make more stops along the way. Using a Supercharger (DC-DC charging station), the last bit from 80-100% takes almost as long as 20-80%, so 85% more wait time for a mere 25% more range. On a road trip, I know I'm ready for a stretch and bathroom after 3 hours or so. I'd be willing to wait 30 minutes for a supercharge up to 80% to get me 3 hours farther up the road.

For grid stress, some cars (eventually all I think) include a feature that you program a departure time and it will "trickle charge" the car so that it reaches 100% close to your leave time. That minimizes the spike loads on power plants because you're not trying to charge thousands or millions of cars at the max rate every evening. So if you get home at 6pm with 50% charge, and set it leave at 7am...it's going to charge just fast enough to meet that energy demand in 11 hours, when in reality it could do it in 4 or less.

Non-commercial towing is going to be a problem, I think it'll take a solid 20-30 years before we see a workable solution to EV towing in "light duty" applications (3/4T trucks are light duty in this case). The F150 is the first true test of EV towing. The F150 has the 2.7L EB, 3.5L EB, 5.0L V8, 3.5L hybrid, and eventually a full BEV with two different capacities. I believe a 7000lb trailer is the heaviest you can tow among all the configurations. It's only a matter of time before we see a 6-way tow-off to see what the real work difference really is.

Commercial trucks (class 4 and up) are a different animal, and there's a lot more to it than just range and charge times. Fleet operators estimate cradle-to-grave expenses. The EV upfront costs are at least 3x higher than gas or diesel options. But the ongoing operating expenses will favor EV after a certain point. That mileage is a moving target and varies by operator though. A class 7 beverage truck has a heavy load, frequent stops, and mostly city driving. A class 5 or 6 delivery truck might be limited by volume and with gross weight to spare. A city garbage truck or transit bus may never see more than 35mph and is constantly stopping and starting. School buses run mostly fixed routes twice a day, and can charge in the middle. All these scenarios can have a BEV application fine tuned to meet their demands. As a bonus point for school buses, some districts had big problems with increased diesel expenses from regen cycles when the newer emissions stuff first rolled out. The operators were advised to alter their routes to get the buses on highways to allow for passive regen at the end of their routes. Turns out it worked and the buses were operating at expenses close to pre-emissions levels. EV vehicles will require the same kind of shift in the status quo. Range extended EV configurations can still have an engine and the EV parts can be parallel or series, with batteries ranging from tiny to huge depending on the operator needs. Then there's full BEV and not engine, which is still far off.
 

Supervisor42

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School buses run mostly fixed routes twice a day, and can charge in the middle. All these scenarios can have a BEV application fine tuned to meet their demands. As a bonus point for school buses, some districts had big problems with increased diesel expenses from regen cycles when the newer emissions stuff first rolled out. The operators were advised to alter their routes to get the buses on highways to allow for passive regen at the end of their routes. Turns out it worked and the buses were operating at expenses close to pre-emissions levels. EV vehicles will require the same kind of shift in the status quo. Range extended EV configurations can still have an engine and the EV parts can be parallel or series, with batteries ranging from tiny to huge depending on the operator needs. Then there's full BEV and not engine, which is still far off.
When Tesla rolls out their new line of electric school buses, let us know.:(
No money to be made there.
If a brainless rich person will spend $80,000 for an upgraded golf-cart to drive around town, that's where the money is.
And they can't even meet the demand for those :rolleyes:.
As far as being economically viable in the long run, they are a joke.
If saying you are 'saving the planet' is your main focus, they are great for that:thumbs:.
 

HippoTwilight

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When Tesla rolls out their new line of electric school buses, let us know.:(
No money to be made there.
If a brainless rich person will spend $80,000 for an upgraded golf-cart to drive around town, that's where the money is.
And they can't even meet the demand for those :rolleyes:.
As far as being economically viable in the long run, they are a joke.
If saying you are 'saving the planet' is your main focus, they are great for that:thumbs:.
Bluebird has already sold EV buses powered by Cummins hardware. The same Cummins famous for diesel. Our school district has 1 for a trial. I know a district in North Dakota has one. I saw one article that said over 100 have already been sold.

It's not a Tesla but I hope that enough to satisfy your snarky request..
 

rusty

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The EVs will negatively affect the poor the most. Some places in the EU, gas-powered cars will be outlawed long before there are used EVs that are affordable to the average working person. In my part of this country, you can still get a used vehicle for $1,000 that will get someone back and forth. EVs will never be that cheap. So the poor will be priced out of transportation, and homes are too far apart for public transportation to ever be feasible.
 

Supervisor42

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The EVs will negatively affect the poor the most. Some places in the EU, gas-powered cars will be outlawed long before there are used EVs that are affordable to the average working person. In my part of this country, you can still get a used vehicle for $1,000 that will get someone back and forth. EVs will never be that cheap. So the poor will be priced out of transportation, and homes are too far apart for public transportation to ever be feasible.
Excellent point. They don't think about all the used vehicles sitting on lots 5 years from now that have a sign on them that says:
"For Sale Cheap! Just needs $10,000 worth of batteries". :p
Apologies to Hippo. I didn't mean to be snarky.
Some of us have worked on battery-powered electrical equipment since the mid-80's.
We also worked on ones powered by: propane, gasoline, diesel, hydrogen fuel-cells, CNG, and know the shortcomings of every one.
The Li-Ion batteries appeared in the last 2 years before I retired.
In 'real-world' (industrial) testing, they failed in the first year.
No repair possible, just replacement, (unlike the other batteries).
Tons of equipment was scrapped because it wasn't viable to replace the expensive batteries.
We have danced this dance before.
Don't be us.:(
 
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Neb

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The EVs will negatively affect the poor the most. Some places in the EU, gas-powered cars will be outlawed long before there are used EVs that are affordable to the average working person. In my part of this country, you can still get a used vehicle for $1,000 that will get someone back and forth. EVs will never be that cheap. So the poor will be priced out of transportation, and homes are too far apart for public transportation to ever be feasible.
Very clever of you to notice that.

Agenda 21 included plans move people into urban areas served by mass transit in socially engineered communities. The Great Reset incorporates those ideas.

Ben
 

rusty

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Very clever of you to notice that.

Agenda 21 included plans move people into urban areas served by mass transit in socially engineered communities. The Great Reset incorporates those ideas.

Ben
And those are the same people who call it discrimination when people of the same color, background or economic status choose to live in the same neighborhood and voluntarily segregate.
 

Neb

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And those are the same people who call it discrimination when people of the same color, background or economic status choose to live in the same neighborhood and voluntarily segregate.
The lemmings are marching toward the edge of the Matrix cliff.

Remind me please...

Which color pill do I take to stay out of the matrix and eat gruel?

Ben
 

Supervisor42

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The lemmings are marching toward the edge of the Matrix cliff.

Remind me please...

Which color pill do I take to stay out of the matrix and eat gruel?

Ben
Yes, one day soon, we will all be able to drive 'environmentally-safe' electric vehicles and no longer have to worry about driving around with a tank full of evil explosive 'gasoline' behind us.😄
I can't wait to get a Tesla! :woo hoo:

(Loved watching the German firemen trying to put it out with water:oops:)
 

Neb

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Yes, one day soon, we will all be able to drive 'environmentally-safe' electric vehicles and no longer have to worry about driving around with a tank full of evil explosive 'gasoline' behind us.😄
I can't wait to get a Tesla! :woo hoo:

(Loved watching the German firemen trying to put it out with water:oops:)
Lithium at elevated temps combine with water to produce lithium hydroxide and hydrogen gas. Think hindenburg.

Shut of the water ane let it burn out.

Ben
 

rusty

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On a related note, Biden suspended oil leases in Alaska yesterday.
 

Guardian

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Yes, one day soon, we will all be able to drive 'environmentally-safe' electric vehicles and no longer have to worry about driving around with a tank full of evil explosive 'gasoline' behind us.😄
I can't wait to get a Tesla! :woo hoo:

(Loved watching the German firemen trying to put it out with water:oops:)
Come on 42 you know you gotta have one.... Its all good since the powers that be say so right? $20 a gallon gasoline in America is cool and all since I am sure its all for the children and such. Bless those Biden voters for saving the planet and even more so us foolish Americans that don't know better. 🤪

Lithium is fairly rare and mined under rather nasty conditions. From what I have read it is not currently recyclable nor is it something that should be added to a landfill. That said, maybe some day the technology might get to a point where it is viable. We certainly are nowhere near close.

For city people this might be a better option in warm climates. Not a workable option here and we are not the worst where temperature is concerned. Add to that the fact fossil fuel, the same stuff the green folks complain about, will be the dominate power source for years to come. I want to see them use only "alternate" sources for power. I want to see those same people give up heating and cooling their home that is provided by fossil fuel. No, it's not possible. No it's not efficient. No, it's not close to reality at this point.
 

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I might be bias because my employer is in the middle of the paradigm shift. They've been a major player on the combustion side of things for their entire existence, watching the alternatives from the sidelines. Now they're becoming a major player some of the alternatives because the technology and finances make sense. They have products in the field as small as mini construction equipment (think mini excavators), medium duty commercial vehicles in markets around the world, and prototype grid-scale power sources. Some of it is pure battery, some hybrids of different configurations, and some use other forms of energy storage.

They're going as far as working on a recycling program for batteries that includes finding uses for the remaining good cells in a failed pack. That is something the media isn't talking about yet. What happens to all these lithium batteries when they go bad? I bet Tesla is going to turn a blind eye to the EOL aspect of their products and let somebody else deal with the consequences.

They have all of this is going on while still developing their combustion products. Because the corporate leaders are realists and understand that combustion engines will still play a role for decades to come, in all market segments.




I do believe EV is the future, but not because Tesla or Biden says so. Electric power is just more energy efficient. But I also think the battery tech we have today is unsustainable, and will need a massive industry shift to make it possible. Solid state will be a step in the right direction, but that'll just be the beginning. I think a good stop-gap is range extenders, where an engine acts as a generator, charging a small battery pack, and the wheels are turned exclusively by electric motors. The batteries are smaller and lighter, refilling is just a stop at the gas station, and all the benefits of EV are there.

Regarding the used market. Ford recently announced a realistic goal of 40% EV sales by 2030. EV is marketing talk for anything with an electric motor in it, which includes hybrids that still use a gas engine. That means they expect 60% of their 2030 sales will still be normal combustion engines in 10 years. Those 2030 combustion models will be on the used market well into the 2040's, and maybe the 2050's. I'm better the proverbial $1000 car with a combustion engine will still be on the used market in 50 years. Also, there's companies selling replacement Prius battery packs for $4500. Toyota made it real simple to replace the cells from the cargo area, Rav4 hybrids are similar. You can return your old battery cells for a $3000 core. Making the cost of a new Prius battery $1500. You can find a Prius with a bad pack for less than $5k. So for a days work and less than $7k you can have yourself a reliable daily commuter car that gets amazing gas mileage, and will last you another 75k miles.
 

rusty

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I might be bias because my employer is in the middle of the paradigm shift. They've been a major player on the combustion side of things for their entire existence, watching the alternatives from the sidelines. Now they're becoming a major player some of the alternatives because the technology and finances make sense. They have products in the field as small as mini construction equipment (think mini excavators), medium duty commercial vehicles in markets around the world, and prototype grid-scale power sources. Some of it is pure battery, some hybrids of different configurations, and some use other forms of energy storage.

They're going as far as working on a recycling program for batteries that includes finding uses for the remaining good cells in a failed pack. That is something the media isn't talking about yet. What happens to all these lithium batteries when they go bad? I bet Tesla is going to turn a blind eye to the EOL aspect of their products and let somebody else deal with the consequences.

They have all of this is going on while still developing their combustion products. Because the corporate leaders are realists and understand that combustion engines will still play a role for decades to come, in all market segments.




I do believe EV is the future, but not because Tesla or Biden says so. Electric power is just more energy efficient. But I also think the battery tech we have today is unsustainable, and will need a massive industry shift to make it possible. Solid state will be a step in the right direction, but that'll just be the beginning. I think a good stop-gap is range extenders, where an engine acts as a generator, charging a small battery pack, and the wheels are turned exclusively by electric motors. The batteries are smaller and lighter, refilling is just a stop at the gas station, and all the benefits of EV are there.

Regarding the used market. Ford recently announced a realistic goal of 40% EV sales by 2030. EV is marketing talk for anything with an electric motor in it, which includes hybrids that still use a gas engine. That means they expect 60% of their 2030 sales will still be normal combustion engines in 10 years. Those 2030 combustion models will be on the used market well into the 2040's, and maybe the 2050's. I'm better the proverbial $1000 car with a combustion engine will still be on the used market in 50 years. Also, there's companies selling replacement Prius battery packs for $4500. Toyota made it real simple to replace the cells from the cargo area, Rav4 hybrids are similar. You can return your old battery cells for a $3000 core. Making the cost of a new Prius battery $1500. You can find a Prius with a bad pack for less than $5k. So for a days work and less than $7k you can have yourself a reliable daily commuter car that gets amazing gas mileage, and will last you another 75k miles.
$7000. Do you know there are many out there who could never afford $7000 for a car?
 

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