EMP

[Morgan101]

I know this is an enormous topic and there are many aspects to it, but I am thinking on a much lower, more personal scale. If an EMP hit be it Coronal Mass Ejection or Nuclear attack will your personal electronic devices be destroyed or can they be repaired?

Will all vehicles post 1980 be scrap metal, or can the electronics be removed and replaced? Will every single electric appliance be junk, or can they be fixed? Will the electric appliances in your house be destroyed? Electrically, what will happen to your house? Can it be salvaged? For that matter every other residential and commercial building? Can they be salvaged? Will all of the electrical equipment in the world or in the affected area be junk?

It is one thing to think about what you would do if it happens. How would you survive? What would you do in the interim? Thinking about it in a longer perspective the replacement effort would be staggering. Something the world has never seen. Anybody else ever thought about this?

 

[Supervisor42]

Will the electric appliances in your house be destroyed? Electrically, what will happen to your house? Can it be salvaged? For that matter every other residential and commercial building? Can they be salvaged? Will all of the electrical equipment in the world or in the affected area be junk?

It is one thing to think about what you would do if it happens. How would you survive? What would you do in the interim? Thinking about it in a longer perspective the replacement effort would be staggering. Something the world has never seen. Anybody else ever thought about this?

It has been flogged repeatedly here:
https://www.homesteadingforum.org/threads/emp-home-shield.4568/post-105015
EMP strike possible?
Emp And Hemp: How They Affect Us And How To Prepare
Faraday Cage

 

[viking]

We have prepped for an EMP as best we can, I drove four ground rods in the ground at the four corners of our home for the metal roof, installed EMP Shields on the incoming grid breaker panel, solar backup system, the solar backup shed also has a grounded roof, the Sienna and the Tundra also have EMP Shields installed on them, I've thought about installing ground "Whiskers" under the vehicles, I remember those from the 50's and 60's, they were meant to discharge static buildup that would make the old AM car radios noisy but might work to help discharge EMP built-up charge. All that I have done might save some things, but in the end, we have designed out prepping around the potential of a total loss of all things that need electricity, if we come out the other side with some electricity, it might provide for some entertainment, watching DVD's and having a small amount of lights. If everything electrical dies, no big deal.
Since I grounded the roofs radio signals don't get in and we have no close cell towers, we're in a dead zone and have to travel 3+ miles toward town before we can use a cell phone. I've considered wrapping our whole home with metal siding and grounding that as well but it's an expense that's out of our budget for now.

 

[Aerindel]

I know this is an enormous topic and there are many aspects to it, but I am thinking on a much lower, more personal scale. If an EMP hit be it Coronal Mass Ejection or Nuclear attack will your personal electronic devices be destroyed or can they be repaired?

Nobody knows. Its extremely controversial.

I am on the side, which of course I think is the correct side because I think it has the most scientific support, that an EMP or CME will be extremely destructive on the grid, and not have much effect on personal electronics and vehicles.

Others will disagree.

It is one thing to think about what you would do if it happens. How would you survive? What would you do in the interim? Thinking about it in a longer perspective the replacement effort would be staggering. Something the world has never seen. Anybody else ever thought about this?

Sure. Its the 'sum off all fears' I think its safe to say I've spend a thousand hours thinking about it.

There is 50% chance of a Carrington level CME hitting the earth in any 70 year time frame. It is estimated it would take years to replace all the destroyed grid components, but in reality, it would be generations as second order effects would make repair impossible, ie, a classical boostrap problem, it would take a factory years to make the parts, but the factory itself needs the grid to make the parts to fis the grid....and the works need the food, and the raw materials and the security....and the...

Similar problem exists for EMPS. If, and I consider it a huge if, an EMP trashes the ECU in your truck....it would also trash all the spare ECUs in a warehouse....and the machines in the factory that make the ECUs....


But in short the answer to 'How would you survive" is the same as for every other scenario: by falling back on the technology of our forefathers, combined with the the best of modern scientific knowledge.

If you can provide shelter, water, food and security for yourself, without dependence on electrical technology, you are prepared for most things, and those four things are where all prepping starts.

 

[Caribou]

A lot of computer boards come in shielded envelopes so, the spares may not necessarily be damaged. The metal of the vehicle may provide some protection. Some cars may run but the wipers or other function may not work. A vehicle parked in an underground garage might be okay. There are a lot of man's and might's because nobody knows for sure until the first time it happens in a modern society.

 

[Morgan101]

Nobody knows. Its extremely controversial.

That is exactly what I think. Nobody really knows. People talk in generalities, and give hypotheticals, but we will never know until it happens. I follow the same principles you mentioned; shelter, water, food and security. If those are covered we at least have a better chance of surviving.

 

[Pearl]

I agree with Morgan 101! And, if you live through the initial strike you may have your stored food and shelter. How bad are the toxins in the air and water? I'm confident I can survive in the wild....right now.....but what if I'm sick from toxins or injured???? It also depends on how much is destroyed! Can you pack up and leave your area if it's hit hard and go somewhere else? I try to mentally prepare for these scenarios as well as prepare my homestead, it's all one can do!

 

[Alaskajohn]

While not necessarily EMP related, American Partisan is having a series of articles discussing nuclear preps. I don’t know if this series will touch on EMP, but interesting and perhaps useful for those interested in the nuclear topics. I take it that they will have additional article on the subject in the coming days.

The Nuke Alert, “The 15 Minute Scenario” - American Partisan

Radiation’s Effects And Materials To Mitigate Them - American Partisan

As to EMP threats, I tend to agree with @Aerindel that we need to take the threat seriously. This is due to my learning when I attended the NBC officers course that the army ran in the 1980s and also my time as a kid in Hawaii in the 1970s listening to the stories of the impact on electronics in Hawaii resulting from the nuclear test in the pacific in the 1960s. I know the army takes EMP seriously and the Hawaiian locals had fresh memories of the test and how it impacted radio, phones, electronics, etc. I get that infrastructure is different today, but life is a big gestalt so sometimes you just have to go with what your gut tells you. EMP (and CME) threats need some thought and consideration in how we prep.

 

[Tirediron]

Most electronic vehicles might be fine, I would be concerned with those that have on star, or other outside links built in, I have heard from actual sources, that most obd 3 systems could be vulnerable, it only takes a couple of un happy sensors to make a vehicle immobile and they and the leads to them are not shielded, the ecu might not get hurt, but if the crank position sensor can't sense your dead in the water.

 

[SheepDog]

Tirediron,
What are you basing your optimism on? All of the electronics in a car or truck are directly connected to the metal body. Nothing is "isolated" or even insulated from the body. That car will conduct the E-1 pulse to every piece of electronic gear mounted to it.

 

[Tirediron]

@ sheepdog, I am hoping that electronics won't be all fried, But all of the testing and lack of evidence makes one wonder, I have several pre electronics machines,
As you say if the body acts as an antenna, perhaps that will fry every thing, all that has to happen is overloaded diode from reverse flow. Even if very little automotive is effected, the power grid will almost assuredly be fried, so fuel will run out for most people in a matter of days

 

[Weedygarden]

I woke up this morning with EMPs on my mind and the potential impact one could have on life in the world we live in.

Yes, lots of unknowns when it comes to EMPs.
But, is there the potential of an EMP taking down the whole power grid?
If the power grid goes down, would everyone be affected, since the power grid seems all tied together? Or just parts of the world, or parts of America?
Would that mean that water could no longer be processed and pumped in cities across America, or maybe the whole world? That would mean in three days, people would start dying, if they hadn't gone crazy in the streets already. The exception is people who have wells with hand pumps.
If there are fires, there would potentially be no way to pump water to put them out.
All the food that is stored and stockpiled in the world won't mean anything if people don't have access to water. I'm thinking that places like Phoenix, Tucson, and other places in the south and west where it is so hot and dry. Yes, I have some water, but I don't know that some of us could have too much.
If there is no power, the refineries couldn't produce gasoline and the gas stations couldn't pump what little they have.
And most cars wouldn't run anyway, because of EMP damage.

An EMP could potentially be really bad news all around.

 

[Sourdough]

I understand Alaska and Texas are on isolated power grids.

 

[Supervisor42]

I understand Alaska and Texas are on isolated power grids.

Way, way, many more areas than that!
That's why when people throw around the term 'tha-grid' it makes my blood boil .
In just a 50-mile radius around me, there are 20-30 separate grids.
They all have names.
How do we know? We tear them up all the time.
Everybody went nuts decades ago when they discovered newyark city was all plugged into one single outlet in Canada.
Trust me, the majority of the rest of the country is not like that.
Granted, some major cities have not learned the lesson, and still rely on a single power source.
It could definitely suck to be them.
Example: New Orleans bought into the Entergy scam. They sell themselves as a 'wholesale distributor of discount power'. (Think, the Wal-Mart of electric power) They use the least amount of equipment to supply power to the most people.
Last storm season one substation got knocked out and the whole city went dark.
They told them it would be WEEKS before power would be restored to anyone .

 

[SheepDog]

Whoa there Weedygarden,
We have to define the kind of EMP we are discussing before we start panicking.
A solar EMP is the worst in some ways and the easiest in others. I will assume that it is bad enough to do cataclysmic damage so it is caused by a giant coronal mass ejection, twice the magnitude of the Carrington event. This kind of EMP will only effect the long high tension wires, the transformers and alternators connected to them. All damage can be prevented by opening all the circuits directly connected to those transmission lines. They will have over 90 hours of advance notice that it is coming. Nothing else will be affected and noting at all has to be damaged. The grid may have to be shut down for three to four days. After the CME (coronal mass ejection) passes by they can just turn the power back on - OK, it isn't that easy and it has to be done slowly but that is to prevent damages from brown-outs or surges in the system. This is as bad as it can get unless the companies that control the power don't believe that it is a g threat or don't want to lose the income from shutting down the power it can stop the ability to make power and yes it can cover the entire earth. Without power new wire is going to be very hard to make. The magnet steek is going to be hard to make cut and put together. Before we can fix the system we have make enough power to run at least one of the three plants that make these special products. Then we have to get raw materials to the plants and after assembling the first generator or transformer we have to get it where it needs to be set up. Under the best of circumstances it takes 3 to 10 years to make one transformer or one alternator and each one is different from all the rest. The entire world will need replacements. It is going to take time.

As bad as all that is it is easy compared to a High altitude nuclear EMP. (HEMP) While the CMP generates only one kind of EMP the HEMP generates 3!
in the first 1/2 of one millionth of a second the E1 pulse will destroy all semiconductor devices in the area the bomb can "see". At 50 miles it can only see a few states or a couple of small countries in Europe. At 400 miles up it can "see" from Maine to the gulf of Mexico covering all of the contiguous US, the southern part of Canada and most of Mexico. That E1 pulse will disable all unprotected electronics. That pulse will be diffused in about 1/2 of a millisecond (about 5/10,000 of a second) About 1 second later the E2 pulse will hit. Think of it as a lightning bolt hitting every electrical wire connected to transformers in the entire area all at the same time. We have fast acting switches that would prevent damage except that the E1 pulse already destroyed them.

These first two pulses are virtually the same regardless of the size or type of the bomb. The last pulse is the E3 pulse and it is very much like the CME type EMP. This E3 pulse is determined by the net output of the nuclear detonation. We are too far away for the blast to cause any direct damage. There will be no blast to knock over buildings, no heat blast that will set everything on fire, no direct radiation or fallout to cause nuclear radiation sickness.
The deaths will come from the loss of infrastructure. No Water, transportation, healthcare, sewer, power, natural gas, or communication.
Rebuilding the infrastructure will require help from outside the affected area but it will be too late for most of the population. Those who have stored food and their own water and a way to replenish their food supplies and to defend themselves will last longer than those without. Putting it all back together will take decades. We may have to fight foreign combat troops as well as the unprepared. You could wake up tomorrow to a very different world.

 

[SheepDog]

Everybody went nuts decades ago when they discovered newyark city was all plugged into one single outlet in Canada.
Trust me, the majority of the rest of the country is not like that.
Granted, some major cities have not learned the lesson, and still rely on a single power source.
It could definitely suck to be them.

Actually New York was isolated on purpose because if it had been allowed to spread beyond there it would have been much worse. All of the sub-grids are tied together in a system of management to cover the loss of power in one area or a surge of too much power. It is all controlled by an electronic control system that communicates across an entire geographic area. As far as I know (and I could be wrong) the only hardening of the grid system is the installation of "fast switches" that work automatically to isolate sections in the event of power surges or dips in the secondary grids. The main transfer stations still use mechanical switches to break circuits.

 

[Chaosdawn]

If y'all wanna read a fictional book about HEMP and the aftermath, I recommend One Second After by William Forstchen. I haven't read the following books, that one was enough. Too real and very tragic.

 

[SheepDog]

One Second After is so full of fiction and poor science that it is worthless for prepping for EMP.

 

[Biggkidd]

My gut tells me a lot of electrical things will still work as long as they were NOT being powered / used when whatever event happens. Personally I try and keep a fair stock of old things that use no chips etc. As far as the rest unplug and or disconnect batteries when not in use.

 

[SheepDog]

Solar EMPs offer little threat to anything off grid or disconnected. The bad part if it is severe that Solar EMP can take out power over most of the civilized world. They don't just affect the half that the sun shines on - that coronal mass ejection will envelope the entire Earth.
All your electrical and electronic devices will be fine but there won't be any grid power anywhere for a couple of decades.

 

[bkt]

One Second After is so full of fiction and poor science that it is worthless for prepping for EMP.

It has been a while since I last read it, but my take-away was how people acted after the fact, not so much about how the EMP affected things initially and in the immediate aftermath. The truth of the matter is studies of the effects on electronics and people as a result of detonating a 50Mt nuke in space above a target are really scarce.

That said, I don't prepare for an EMP or any other specific wide-area SHTF scenario. There are far more likely personal SHTF situations I'm more likely to find myself in which I'm working on prepping for.

 

[Bacpacker]

One Second After is so full of fiction and poor science that it is worthless for prepping for EMP.

The book is a Fiction story, thus being filled with Fiction. Not written to be a study guide, but to get people thinking about what would you do.
That said the books are fairly realistic as far as the human interaction goes. Large groups will have many directions the people will go.
All 3 books in that series I thought were pretty good. If somewhat unrealistic. Some of his other books are pretty good too

 

[Neb]

....

That said, I don't prepare for an EMP or any other specific wide-area SHTF scenario. There are far more likely personal SHTF situations I'm more likely to find myself in which I'm working on prepping for.

While I am not there yet, I see an EMP as a worst case event which brings with it all other scenarios. If we are prepared for an EMP event we can handle all of the others.

Ben

 

[Caribou]

One Second After is so full of fiction and poor science that it is worthless for prepping for EMP.

WRONG! My wife read that book and actually got behind my prepping. For awhile, and even today she drags her feet far less. Whether it is great for prepping for EMP, meh who knows. For inspiring prepping it is a valuable resource. It's a worse case scenario and as such that's how I want to prep anyway.

 

[Rick]

1) Will all vehicles post 1980 be scrap metal, or can the electronics be removed and replaced?
2)Will every single electric appliance be junk, or can they be fixed?
3)Will the electric appliances in your house be destroyed? Electrically, what will happen to your house? Can it be salvaged? For that matter every other residential and commercial building? Can they be salvaged?
4)Will all of the electrical equipment in the world or in the affected area be junk?

1) 99% of all vehicles will be entirely unaffected. exceptions maybe the radio (if it was running)
2)+3) No. appliances that re -designed to "receives" like radios or that includes long cabling will be at significant risk, but this is a minority of appliances/equipment
4)No.

Sources; I used to work one desk removed from a co-author of the congressional report on EMP and we had some discussions.

 

[Caribou]

I understand Alaska and Texas are on isolated power grids.

Texas is on the Texas grid. The there are the Eastern grid and the Western grid. Most power companies buy and sell power within their grid. Charlietown has excess the sell, if short they buy but for the most part they are tied together to make that possible.

In Alaska, with the possible exception of the Anchorage/Fairbanks corridor, each community has its own power generation. Several decades ago Bethel had a fire in the generator building. Bethel was SOL until the generator could be repaired or replaced. Had we been on a grid the town could have switched over to power from another community. Some places, Juneau and Ketchikan for example, are big enough that they have multiple power generating facilities. Ketchikan has at least 3 hydro facilities plus a diesel plant with multiple generators.

Some time back there was a high lake near Juneau. They went in at sea level and drilled a tunnel the bottom of the lake. they built their gate, left it open, then set the charges for the last blast. When they set it off the lake flushed the tunnel clean and they shut the gate, installed the generators, and ran the power lines. Juneau didn't remove any of their power sources when that plant started. That was a good plan as the towers were only designed to withstand 150 MPH hour winds. It took 3 or 4 years to get the new towers designed and installed.

While my home in Ketchikan is on the grid, Ketchikan per se isn't part of a grid.

 

[Neb]

1) 99% of all vehicles will be entirely unaffected. exceptions maybe the radio (if it was running)
2)+3) No. appliances that re -designed to "receives" like radios or that includes long cabling will be at significant risk, but this is a minority of appliances/equipment
4)No.

Sources; I used to work one desk removed from a co-author of the congressional report on EMP and we had some discussions.

Roscoe Bartlett ?



Ben

 

[user 55]

At the end of the day in my opinion, all we can do is speculate as far as EMP goes. I am not aware of anyone that to date has been affected. There might be cases and to be fair I have done zero research into previous incidents but thats my take at this point in time.

I feel if things go "emp" that the "nukes" have been unleashed at that point and further discussion and preparations will no longer be relevant. Notice I said "my opinion". I am here to learn among other things so if I am incorrect then I will learn from details and teaching of others.

 

[Rick]

PS: Transformers are at significant risk of destruction and any long cable assemblies .
The 2nd and 3rd order effects of this are legion.

 

[Rick]

Roscoe Bartlett ?



Ben

Not telling.
Do not want to make doxing too easy