Generate electricity from thin air?

[Supervisor42]

I like it!

I spent an hour or two looking at your links and chasing those links..

I need more time to read and process.

I have basic truths that have understand in the context or adjust.

You don't get something for nothing.


Where does the energy come from. ????


Ben

Yes, for there to be power, something must be consumed.
Magnetic force lines are atomic, not nuclear.
The spin of the electrons around the nucleus of the atoms, when aligned, produce the magnetic energy that is emitted from the poles from the atoms.
Again, we know so little about the production of this power as it appears without the consumption of any part of the atom. Most likely some electrons are being decomposed into energy.
But we can measure the power, and it is continuous.
It's like explaining the power gravity emits. See above sentence.
Anything pulled down to the earth releases energy.
That energy comes from the earth's gravitational field, not the object itself.
We have no problem manipulating magnetic and gravity forces to suit our needs.
Anymore than the store guy doesn't have a clue how his barcode reader works inside, but he can scan a ton of stuff with in 5 minutes.
Magnets provide power for decades, and the best we can do with them is make sure they hold the pictures on our refrigerator.

 

[Peanut]

On a lite note...

Tonight I was looking for an amazing book on magnetism I got at a yard sale once, wanted to share it. I found a very different book, the naval training manual on "Motors and Generators".

I flipped a couple pages and saw the "Left Hand Rule"... had to chuckle, I haven't thought of that term in decades!

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

 

[GaryLa]

If this one is fake, they sure went thru a lot of trouble to make it, and a company to sell them.

The video "in the middle of nowhere" is the most suspicious. Why bother going to the middle of nowhere? The parking lot would do. Needlessly dramatic.

Also, having lived in L.A. for many years, I've seen many surprising things "off camera". Often, what you can't see is more interesting than what you can.

Nonetheless, the universe doesn't give up power for nothing. Forces bind objects, forces attract, forces repel. There are no forces just hanging around waiting to give up infinite amounts of energy. It would require something to be created from "thin air".

I used to teach a CNC class. I had a student who had been working on a perpetual motion design for a couple of years. He was convinced he could get it to work. I knew him about a year. Whenever it would run for a short period of time he became even more convinced. He refused to understand there is no source of energy that is bottomless or without some type of trade-off.

Michael Faraday would've not only introduced the world to the electric motor, but he would've also introduced the world to a self-powered electric motor if it were possible. It would've been the natural complement to the motor.

In engineering school, we would've certainly come across this subject at least once. And I promise you -- I did not pinky-swear to never reveal the "truth".

Here's a simple experiment which I keep handy to demonstrate this. Go to the store and purchase two small DC motors, a flashlight bulb, and a switch. Wire the bulb and the switch in-line and to one terminal on each motor. Then direct connect the other two motor terminals to each other.

Open the switch and turn one motor. Notice the effort. Close the switch and turn the motor again. Notice the effort is now greater. This is the effect of the resistance making it more difficult for the current to flow. Therefore, more energy must be input. Two motors aren't necessary, but it also shows motor vs generator -- meaning that Michael Faraday would've "discovered" this without much effort.

There is no phenomenon which can avoid this. The more current draw, the more effort to move the conductor (or the magnet). These machines on the internet are frauds. If they had actually discovered a new phenomenon they would've published the science either in a paper or in a patent. No need to really build anything. The math either works, or it doesn't.

 

[SLADE]

When I see the belt on a 10 thousand watt gen flopping up and down and hear squeak squeak squeak I think I see a whirl i gig.
The lights give the impression of light and the light shaped like a heater give the impression there is heat buuuut at best I see what a very few watts can do.

 

[Supervisor42]

There is no phenomenon which can avoid this. The more current draw, the more effort to move the conductor (or the magnet). These machines on the internet are frauds. If they had actually discovered a new phenomenon they would've published the science either in a paper or in a patent. No need to really build anything. The math either works, or it doesn't.

It's ok. They don't work, and they don't exist. (Well, they won't exist in the US )
"Our Portfolio includes more than 20 inventions with 14 patents. Many of our inventions have been successfully manufactured and implemented across various industries in several countries."


10KW MAGNETIC GENERATOR
$15,000.00

And you can bet that the power companies will buy every one they can make, and destroy it.

 

[Neb]

It's ok. They don't work, and they don't exist. (Well, they won't exist in the US )
"Our Portfolio includes more than 20 inventions with 14 patents. Many of our inventions have been successfully manufactured and implemented across various industries in several countries."


10KW MAGNETIC GENERATOR
$15,000.00

And you can bet that the power companies will buy every one they can make, and destroy it.

According to the tech specs they provided they have sensors that detect if any access panel is removed that will render the unit nonfunctional if opened . What is up with that?

Why does require GPS?

Have you found a patent for it?

Ben

 

[Supervisor42]

According to the tech specs they provided they have sensors that detect if any access panel is removed that will render the unit nonfunctional if opened . What is up with that?

Why does it require GPS?

Have you found a patent for it?

Ben

They have GPS on them to make sure they cannot be operated in the US.
Besides, since they don't work, having safety switches on the panel doors will make no difference.
And I'm sure the door switches are only there to keep someone working on it from getting fried since you can't simply "unplug" it.

 

[GaryLa]

"Our Portfolio includes more than 20 inventions with 14 patents."

First, you're assuming that the myriad engineers and entrepreneurs in the USA are incapable of figuring this out. No matter how many times power companies "buy out and destroy" there will always be another one -- if for no other reason than to get bought out.

Second, when a company says it has "patents", it doesn't mean they do. The patent office will not allow any perpetual motion patents. Filing a Provisional Patent allows you to say "patented". This is about a $500 fee, lasts a year, and is not reviewed or disclosed by the USPTO.

Third, when claiming to have a patent, you provide the patent number. This way people can figure out if a design they're making is encroaching, or to convince people to license your awesomeness, or run away in fear from your lawyer army.

Lastly, many times a company will promote a product and say "it's patented" but reviewing the patent reveals that something insignificant is the actual patented item.

See if they'll give you the patent numbers -- after all, it's public info once it's truly patented.

 

[Supervisor42]

Third, when claiming to have a patent, you provide the patent number. This way people can figure out if a design they're making is encroaching, or to convince people to license your awesomeness, or run away in fear from your lawyer army.

Lastly, many times a company will promote a product and say "it's patented" but reviewing the patent reveals that something insignificant is the actual patented item.

See if they'll give you the patent numbers -- after all, it's public info once it's truly patented.

You hit the nail on the head with that one.
Do you actually think they would post a quick-link to detailed drawings and a description of 'theory of operation' online for every company in India and China (to whom patents are only a source of design info) to copy?
They do have more than half a brain.
This is the other reason that their units have GPS wired into their control systems.
A unit located in a lab in Guangdong China for study? = no-workey.

 

[Neb]

You hit the nail on the head with that one.
Do you actually think they would post a quick-link to detailed drawings and a description of 'theory of operation' online for every company in India and China (to whom patents are only a source of design info) to copy?
They do have more than half a brain.
This is the other reason that their units have GPS wired into their control systems.
A unit located in a lab in Guangdong China for study? = no-workey.

If tou find something that explains where the energy source is, please share because I am curious about any technology that violates one of the laws of thermodynamics.

Ben

 

[SheepDog]

Third law doesn't hold true for helium. Helium maintains atomic motion at absolute zero - it is the exception that proves quantum zero point energy.

 

[Supervisor42]

If tou find something that explains where the energy source is, please share because I am curious about any technology that violates one of the laws of thermodynamics.

View attachment 76407

Ben

You can start by adding that "nuclear fission" stuff to your 50's classroom material.
How can you simply lower uranium rods into water and make enough steam to generate electricity for years? They are not being 'burned'.
Magnets emit magnetic force lines.
Uranium emits radioactive force lines.
You see no similarity?
We can work on adding that pesky "nuclear fusion" stuff that makes the sun shine to your laws, later on .

 

[Neb]

Third law doesn't hold true for helium. Helium maintains atomic motion at absolute zero - it is the exception that proves quantum zero point energy.

Note the 3rd applies to crystalline.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose–Einstein_condensate
I used to work in the lb next to Dr David Snoke when I was at pitt.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dav...41LjOYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp
He is an interesting fellow. I is also a Christian minister. He and I used to do weekly bible studies together.

Ben

 

[Neb]

...
They are not being 'burned'.
Magnets emit magnetic force lines.
Uranium emits radioactive force lines.
You see no similarity?
...

No.
Burning is a chemical reaction not nuclear.

Ben

 

[SheepDog]

Uranium 235 breaks down in fission releasing 2.5 fast neutrons. The fission reactions generate a lot of heat. The released neutrons hit other 235 nuclei which maintains the reaction. The carbon control rods absorb some of the neutrons and slow others to keep the reaction in the critical range and out of the super critical range. Cooling water keeps the rods from overheating and burning. There are actinides and plutonium generated in the process. In a high pressure reactor only about 7% of the fuel in each rod can be used before they must be replaced due to damage to the rods by the heat and radioactivity. The rods are not recycled so 93% of the fuel is wasted.

 

[Supervisor42]

No.
Burning is a chemical reaction not nuclear.

Ben

Ok, simplified:
Let's suppose I am playing with a couple of the ferro-magnets that I built Flashlight with.
I am not careful and they slam together and give me a big blood-blister on my finger. (They will do that )
I did not drop either one so the power was not from gravity.
I did not stretch them apart, storing energy in them like a spring.
So, where did the power to smash my finger come from?
Those pesky electrons, all rotating in the same plane around their atoms.
Yes, that power is real.

 

[Neb]

On a lite note...

View attachment 76377


Tonight I was looking for an amazing book on magnetism I got at a yard sale once, wanted to share it. I found a very different book, the naval training manual on "Motors and Generators".

I flipped a couple pages and saw the "Left Hand Rule"... had to chuckle, I haven't thought of that term in decades!

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Was that a military manual?

There is also a right hand rule.

Ben

 

[SheepDog]

There is no electrical current flowing. The attraction between the north and south poles of the magnet is due to the alignment of the metal (or crystal) latices. Identical atoms that are not aligned will have the same atomic rotation without causing any magnetic flux at all. The only difference is the amount of aligned regions and their density.

 

[Neb]

Ok, simplified:
Let's suppose I am playing with a couple of the ferro-magnets that I built Flashlight with.
I am not careful and they slam together and give me a big blood-blister on my finger. (They will do that )
I did not drop either one so the power was not from gravity.
I did not stretch them apart, storing energy in them like a spring.
So, where did the power to smash my finger come from?
Those pesky electrons, all rotating in the same plane around their atoms.
Yes, that power is real.

See my word salad summary of magnetic field lines i posted earlier in this thread about field lines tend to be as short as possible. The potential energy of the two fields converts to kinetic energy and the two magnets transition to a lower energy state as it smashes your finger.

Ben

 

[SheepDog]

Ben,
Does that mean that if you do it again it will hurt less?

 

[Neb]

Ben,
Does that mean that if you do it again it will hurt less?

To do it again with same of magnets one would have to separate them and in so doing add potential energy....



But to extend the discussion of magnets...

One way of reducing the strength of a magnet you can beat on it in the absence of a magnetic field. It will knock some of the magnetic domains out of alignment.

Same thing backwards if there is a magnetic field to align the domains.

When iron magnets are made one method starts by heating the iron then keep it in a magnetic field while it cools. Look at the crystal structures of iron.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron
Below 1185 K it is body centered cubic and above that is face centered cubic. The former is magnetic and the later not.

Doubleboost used that property in this video where he was hardening bearing surfaces.



Nuff for now.

Ben

 

[Supervisor42]

Ben,
Does that mean that if you do it again it will hurt less?

Nope.
I know a little bit about magnets:

Here you can see them defying gravity and being attracted to a wood board which does not attract magnets.

 

[Neb]

Nope.
I know a little bit about magnets:

Here you can see them defying gravity and being attracted to a wood board which does not attract magnets.

For fun and insight...

Cut a section of a pin to 1/8 to 1/4 inch long and rte a thread at the middle.

Use the needle segment as a probe by holding the thread and observing the pin.

If you have a handful of iron filings you can sprinkle filings in a magnetic field...
See link below

https://www.google.com/search?q=mag...pvCF4Q_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=772&dpr=2.63
Ben

 

[GaryLa]

Do you actually think they would post a quick-link to detailed drawings and a description of 'theory of operation' online for every company in India and China (to whom patents are only a source of design info) to copy?

China and anyone else can scour patents 24 hours a day, and do. Companies exist for the sole purpose of data mining the publicly available patents.

No point in having a patent nobody knows about. That's how an idiot would play it. Or someone who's lying.

These fraudsters prey on people's ignorance and arrogance.

 

[GaryLa]

Probably the most important thing to grasp is the fact that the more current you draw, the tougher it becomes to move either the magnet or the conductor.

If this fact did not exist, electricity would never have been of any concern for anyone to produce it themselves -- it never would've become an industry. It would've been the same as making heat from a fireplace: do it yourself.

The idea that a massive conspiracy exists to keep a fundamental physical phenomenon a secret for over 200 years is rather ridiculous. Especially considering so many disparate groups would have to participate.

I read the website of the Korean company and had a pretty good laugh. I think it's hilarious that these fraudsters are always at the stage of "pre-order". I also thought it was a nice touch that they couldn't divulge distributor information -- because the distributors needed to be left alone while they acquired the necessary business licenses and to setup their shops. Absolutely hilarious.

 

[Magus]

This is interesting, looks like most of us have experimented with energy. Hydrogen generation from water was my choice. I assure you that when hydrogen and oxygen are split from water molecules they can go Boom! Very loudly! I say this from experience.

I started out building wet cells, simple designs and very cheap. The down side, the cell designs had serious thermal issues. Even with limitations I've ran them on several vehicles including a couple of tractors.

Last 2 pics, a dry cell I built. It ran great without thermal issues! (The entire cell does not sit in water. The water is internal, the outside is dry.)

The first water based hydrogen generators on vehicles were built by the British in ww2. They were installed on a few tanks in the North Africa campaigns where fuel shortages were a constant issue for everyone. What other shortages exists in deserts? Water...

But for the sneaky little O2 sensors in exhaust systems they'd work great on any car built today. Once a vehicle computer sees off the chart oxygen levels in the exhaust they nullify any gains in mileage.

View attachment 76221View attachment 76222View attachment 76223View attachment 76224

I too fell for the sweet allure of Hydrogen. 800$ and some after hours machine work later and I think I invented the steam engine. that 2nd picture looks awfully familiar, but my silly butt used molecular stainless.

 

[Hooch]

This is a really interesting thread.

 

[Magus]

Educational as well.