Hay questions

[sonya123]

So getting good quality hay that does not cost a fortune is our biggest all the time problem on this farm. Maybe someone here can give me some ideas to help
Do you buy hay? If yes, how much? How does it get to your farm and how do you store it? What are you paying? What are you feeding with it?

We have goats and sheep , and need a lot of hay ( for winter this year we have stocked up with about 600 square bales and 10 round bales )
I don't know if this is just our area ( wet) but we have a problem getting hay that is dry. Even if it never rained on it, the hay still isn't dry enough sometimes when put up ( our round bales are crap right now) . Is it the farmers around here are not that good? Is the weather just not good enough to get hay put up dry? ( it's usually the second cutting that causes problems). The problem is we try to get it from around here
Do you ever get a large amount of hay delivered? How did you find it?

We had our own hay field but couldn't find anyone to do a good job baling it. The farmer that did it constantly baled not dry enough hay. I think he totally ripped us off but that's another story. So we sold the hay field and property it was on ( half hour from where we live).
Hay equipment costs a small fortune so we never thought about buying our own.

thanks for any input here

 

[Amish Heart]

We don't buy it. Can't remember what my cousin says he buys and sells for, I'll ask. I know the farmers say that it has to be a certain humidity before they cut and bale hay. I'm guessing low. I know our back alfalfa field is cut one day, then raked another, and then baled when the humidity is right. I know our next door farm neighbor, an amish guy, had a flyer up in town that says he specializes in cutting and baling in high humidity. So there is a trick to it. He sometimes stores his round bale wrapper in our round top. Sometimes I see solidly extra thick plastic wrapped round bales stored outside for a season. Was told it was silage. An alternative to using a silo. I guess that after it "ferments" in there, then it becomes feed.

 

[Pearl]

Hay is expensive right now! I'm only feeding one donkey. I buy bermuda in 100# square bales. The feed store I use gets it from Arizona, always great hay. 28$ a bale right now, one bale lasts a week right now. With the bad drought here there wasn't grass all summer and now winter is knocking. Come spring a bale will last week's! I keep at least a dozen on hand!

 

[Mountain trapper]

We go through about 100 ton of hay a year. I've got a 25' gooseneck trailer that will haul 6 ton at a time. And I'm hauling it 30 miles one way. It's a good quality grass hay from irrigated fields. We seldom get rain here in summer so there's little chance of the hay getting rained on. I think I was paying $200 a ton for it.
I use small bales, 85 pounds each. I don't have any flat ground here and the large bales are too hard to move around with my tractor.
I store a lot of the hay in our barn and the rest outside under tarps.
This Fall I planted about 10 acres in alfalfa/grass. Next spring I'm planing on planting another 20 - 30 acres in grass. This should give us all the hay we need.
Our area is so dry that moisture content is never a problem. But if moisture is a problem in your area, get yourself a moisture meter and check your hay before buying it.

 

[FarmOR]

This is my wheel house. My primary business has been hay and lambs for the past ten years. I'm in eastern Oregon that has a climate advantage for hay (think like regional advantages for Iowa corn)?

It might take some effort, but try to find a producer that you can count on. A dependable producer will have the following attributes:
1) not the cheapest hay, but definitely not the most expensive. This is a book worthy subject in its own. Value is a compromise between price and quality. You will find "A flash in the pan" on occasions where the hay is priced too low. I advise you to take advantage. But know that it is temporary, because that producer will go away at the fate of economics. A dependable producer will make enough profit to survive without gouging you to death.
2) look for the producer that has fewer clients. Dependable producers are very cognizant about time efficiency. A great majority of hay buyers are fickle, uneducated, and can waste your valuable time! They are just like you given the search for longer term repeat business. A dependable buyer is golden to a dependable producer.
3) be a dependable buyer. Educate yourself. Learn how to tell the difference between quality hay and substandard. Learn about laboratory testing for hay. Know and use the terminology. Keep your appointments. And pay your bills. When a problem arises (nobody is perfect) be honest and tactful and I guarantee that the producer will try to make it right.
4) except to pay close to the market price. Different producers have different cost structures. The people who buy and operate new equipment and hire their repairs are gonna cost more than the people with used clean equipment that do their own repairs. The usda release a hay report every week for several states and different grades of hay. You can expect your producer to price 10-20% below the market value on a consistent basis?

 

[Pearl]

This is my wheel house. My primary business has been hay and lambs for the past ten years. I'm in eastern Oregon that has a climate advantage for hay (think like regional advantages for Iowa corn)?

It might take some effort, but try to find a producer that you can count on. A dependable producer will have the following attributes:
1) not the cheapest hay, but definitely not the most expensive. This is a book worthy subject in its own. Value is a compromise between price and quality. You will find "A flash in the pan" on occasions where the hay is priced too low. I advise you to take advantage. But know that it is temporary, because that producer will go away at the fate of economics. A dependable producer will make enough profit to survive without gouging you to death.
2) look for the producer that has fewer clients. Dependable producers are very cognizant about time efficiency. A great majority of hay buyers are fickle, uneducated, and can waste your valuable time! They are just like you given the search for longer term repeat business. A dependable buyer is golden to a dependable producer.
3) be a dependable buyer. Educate yourself. Learn how to tell the difference between quality hay and substandard. Learn about laboratory testing for hay. Know and use the terminology. Keep your appointments. And pay your bills. When a problem arises (nobody is perfect) be honest and tactful and I guarantee that the producer will try to make it right.
4) except to pay close to the market price. Different producers have different cost structures. The people who buy and operate new equipment and hire their repairs are gonna cost more than the people with used clean equipment that do their own repairs. The usda release a hay report every week for several states and different grades of hay. You can expect your producer to price 10-20% below the market value on a consistent basis?

Great advice!! There is a hay supplier in my area who sells premium bermuda, timothy, and alfalfa. Her farmers are in northern CA and Oregon!! She is very well educated in hay and passes her knowledge along to her customers!! You need to know what you are looking at when it comes to hay. It needs to be bailed at the right time!!

 

[FarmOR]

Moisture content is definitely one of the top three measures. Number two is probably percent protein. Three probably relative feed value. But that is somewhat controversial? RFQ is considered superior number. Dairy producers are often experts on hay.

Experienced buyers can tell a lot by appearance, smell, and yes! Even taste!

 

[FarmOR]

Some visual cues of correct moisture? Color should be mostly greenish. For alfalfa, if you see a few flakes of brown sugar, that is perfect! The hay should flake or slab at the consistency of the balers plunger. If it falls apart like chopped hay - that's too dry.

I think like a chef does the perfect steak. It should melt in the mouth? Too dry will be void of mold, but swell up in the mouth and devoid of much nutrition. Too wet will have mold and excessive bonding throughout the bale. Really tough to get perfect, particularly for the larger producer. The little guy has a big advantage here, but I do have friends that go big with injected preservative to compensate for natural moisture differences across the field.

 

[FarmOR]

The time of day the cutting is done is significant. Due to plant photosynthesis. Hay cut in dark will be lacking in carbohydrate. There's applications for low sugar hay for metabolic horses. But most people want to maximize nutrition in a storable forage. Hay cut mid morning until mid afternoon will have the highest carbohydrate content. A hay test is the most reliable way to compare?

 

[rice paddy daddy]

here in NE Florida we use a variety called "coastal". A square bale weighs about 60-70 pounds.
When we had three horses, I bought direct from a hay farmer, 40 square bales a month for $5/bale.
Hay supplements our grass, our one remaining horse gets a bag full over night when she's in her stall paddock to keep her busy.
With just one horse, and grass almost year round, I buy 4 bales at a time from the feed store in town.

We tried round bales, but the waste was just too much, and keeping it dry was a challenge. Feeding wet mouldy hay is a quick way to kill a horse.

 

[Cascadian]

We are in western Oregon. We are new to buying hay. During the summer we purchased 3 tons of grass hay out of the field. We picked it up ourselves. That hay was reasonably priced and seems good quality. I think it was just under $200 a ton.

A few months later we decided to get 2 more tons. The original guy was sold out for the season. By now all the prices had gone up since farmers had to pay their hands to pick up and stack it in the barns. I found another guy on craigslist who was quite a bit cheaper. I asked questions about the price like was it this year's hay, got wet, moldy etc. He said no I am just not greedy. We had it delivered. It seemed a little light "tan" in color like it was laying in the field too long. Now that we have used a few there is also some weeds. The stalks seem a little bigger also. All in all I think it is ok. I did keep the number of the first farmer and plan to be a good repeat customer.

As for storage we get 50 inches of rain. We have a large metal RV cover with open sides and use a tarp for the sideways rain. So far so good.

 

[FarmOR]

Sorry about the ongoing rambling!

The bicycle twist hay moisture test: Take about a inch and a quarter cylinder of hay between your hands about 4-6 inches apart. With firm grip, do the bicycle twist and count your rotation. If the hay totally severs on twist number three, that is perfect 15-17% moisture! If it breaks on two, that's 10-12%. If it takes over three, try a few more handfuls before concluding it's over 18%.

I have a high dollar moisture probe. Have compared it to my bicycle twist and verified using microwave cook and weight testing. My artful bicycle twist beats my expensive probe, but albeit I have practice a lot!

 

[Peanut]

I grew my own. I wasn’t happy unless I had about 150 rolls by November, some years 200 were needed. I knew the quality of my hay, no guess work.

I grew about half my hay here on the farm. I had an arrangement with a retired guy and his wife down the road. They bought a place out in the country with a 22 acre hay field but had no equipment. They had no critters either.

I grew hay and took care of the field at no charge but got the hay for free. The perfect solution for each of us. The only annoying part, his son-in-law was a golfer. Would hit golf balls into my field. A cousin had a hay field by an apartment building near town. People would hit golf balls into it. Wrecked a $20K hay conditioner! He never got it to run right again.

And yes, the smell test works, just need experience. It’s what I went by, either dry or as I cut it. I usually went by the scent as I cut, knew the exact quality.

If you have the acreage or can work out a deal on a field, growing hay is cheaper in the long run.

 

[Peanut]

Here's my "free hay" field. Couple built a weekend house, had a pond for the grandkids to fish. A hay field isn't hard to find around here. People retire and move out in the country all the time but usually don't have the equipment to see after their place. An arrangement is usually made with a hand shake.

 

[ClemKadiddlehopper]

Big round bale:

It will be light tan on the outside. If it is darker going on black for an inch or two in, it has sat out in the field in rain for a while. Not a problem.This applies most to string tied bales.

Net wrapped will have less discoloration depending how many wraps they used.

It is still not an issue, but a possible warning that it could have been baled in a short weather window or gotten rained on before baling.

Try to pull a handful from as far in dead center on the end. If the bale is really dense, you will have to work at it. The hay you pull out should be light green and smell fresh and grassy. Brown, damp or dusty is not good.

Small or large squares

Cannot take any rain after baling. Even if baled dry its trouble. This hay should be discounted. Sqares stacked in a flat topped pile and then tarped will mold on the top row or two if it is rainy. Tarps, contrary to popular belief, are not overly water proof after a period of time outside in the wind and rain. Sqare baled hay will suck water/moisture up as the way they are formed in slabs leaves lots of travel routes for water to get in.

Again, you need to dig as far in as you can to get a sample. Fresh smelling, loose and a light green is what you are looking for.

Check some random bales. There will always be a bale that sat near a damp spot or something.

Keep track of the weather where your supplier lives. Was it hot and dry or was the area hit with a lot of rain? In a wet year the hay will be crap, period. That is when you want to look at haylage if your critters can eat it. Instead of chopping fresh cut hay and storing it in silage pits, the hay is cut green and baled and than plastic wrapped (sealed completely) within 24 hours. It ferments like silage but is easier to transport and mold isn't a problem. Silage and haylage both stink as they are a fermentation.


I always like some weeds. It means no chemicals, but than I grew my own and had weeds. My critters learned to eat them, or they became bedding.

 

[sonya123]

Wow lots of good info here. We have the biggest problem with the round bales. They look good on the outside, and then you undo them and they are crap on the inside. I have a temperature measuring thing to make sure it doesn't catch fire but not one that measures moisture but will check into that.

We do have a few very reliable farmers we get hay from. Our Amish neighbors grow the most perfect mix of grass and alfalfa hay right next door and we buy from them. It is not a bad price either. But we heard they will be moving next year. Plus we don't want to feed too much alfalfa.
Then we have 2 over 80 year old farmers that make good hay but most likely they will not be doing it next year, already told us. One has health problems ( my gosh at that age not surprising! ) the other one too many equipment problems and health problems.
Then there is the guy with the crappy round bales this year. He has sold us good bales before and said he will replace the really bad ones for free since we are good customers. He has a regular full time job and cuts his hay when he has time, so if the weather is not dry and the hay needs cutting there are problems.

I try to buy hay from different farmers so the animals get better nutrition. Not all hay is the same ( even if baled well) so odds are better by getting different stuff I think but not sure that's true. Our animals are ok with some weeds in the hay , actually the goats like some of the weeds very much and pick them out first. We got a load of perfectly looking green orchard grass one time , definitely dry and nice looking and the animals wouldn't touch it. We actually took it back and the farmer couldn't explain it but took them back and refunded the money. That was weird. He must have sprayed them with something they didn't like

 

[ClemKadiddlehopper]

Agreed. The hay guy having a day job is a good chunk of the problem. He has limited time to cut and bale and cannot make good use of ideal conditions or he might not get it done at all if he has a large amount to put up.

Also, is he just learning himself? If so, he will get better if he is meant to be a farmer.

 

[Spikedriver]

I've put up a lot of hay in my life. Here in Iowa a lot depends on the time of year. During the first cutting season the weather tends to be wet and farmers are usually busy with corn and beans so hay is on the back burner. The first cutting of alfalfa can tend to get a little rank, but most farmers get it done before it gets too stemmy. Alfalfa that gets rained on after it's cut can be saved by turning it but it won't be as good.

Currently my brother runs the farm and puts up grass hay only. Grass is a little easier to get put up because if you cut it in the late morning on a sunny, breezy day it's ready to go by noon the next day. The window for a good cutting is longer too. You can still get a good first cutting around the 4th of July, it won't be too rank yet.

I'm a big fan of grass hay for most applications. Animals that need hay are usually built to eat grass. Alfalfa is great, and is best for certain applications like dairy cattle, but for horses and for a lot of beef cows, good grass is just fine. I'm not sure about sheep because I've never been around them, but for goats grass works ok. Shoot, goats do fine eating poison ivy and plastic bags, so as long as the hay isn't moldy it should be good no matter what it is.

 

[Pearl]

Sorry about the ongoing rambling!

The bicycle twist hay moisture test: Take about a inch and a quarter cylinder of hay between your hands about 4-6 inches apart. With firm grip, do the bicycle twist and count your rotation. If the hay totally severs on twist number three, that is perfect 15-17% moisture! If it breaks on two, that's 10-12%. If it takes over three, try a few more handfuls before concluding it's over 18%.

I have a high dollar moisture probe. Have compared it to my bicycle twist and verified using microwave cook and weight testing. My artful bicycle twist beats my expensive probe, but albeit I have practice a lot!

We are all here to learn and share! You are not rambling, this is your thing!! Your input is valued!! Thank you!!

 

[Spikedriver]

@FarmOR keep posting stuff. I grew up with hay and I'm enjoying reading your posts.

 

[Bacpacker]

@FarmOR keep posting stuff. I grew up with hay and I'm enjoying reading your posts.

Same here Farm OR. I worked in hay till my mid 20s and you've already taught me some stuff in this thread.

My grand parents grew one field of alfalfa, the rest was all grass. We'd cut and condition usually by noon. Next day turn it with a rake as soon as the dew was off. Then normally bale that evening. He'd always grab a handful and shake it. If it rattled it was ready to bale, if not we'd turn it again next day after the dew and bale that day. It was always kept in the barn, square bales of course
Around here putting hay up too wet is a good way to burn your barn down. If it don't its likely to mold.

 

[Cascadian]

I have seen people use rock salt between bales-stacks.

 

[Spikedriver]

The way hay is stored makes a big difference. Beware of hay that has been stored in a shed on a concrete floor - the bottom row of bales are likely to be moldy. It's much better if the hay has been stored on pallets or something else that gets the bales up off the floor and allows some air flow underneath it. Hay that is weathered is ok - if it's packed tight when baled, it'll shed rain. The outer edge will turn brown or tan but it'll be fine.

If you get a load of small squares, break one or two open on the first and second night. You're looking for signs of heat - I've seen it steaming from the inside when broken open. That's an indicator that it was baled wet and there's a good chance it'll smolder and burn your shed down.

I can't think of too many other things off the top of my head...

 

[Pearl]

GREAT THREAD!! Thank you Sonya!!

 

[Spikedriver]

Something to keep in mind is that depending on what else is available, hay can be stretched. When I was a kid we rented a hay stacker every year, but we stacked cornstalks instead of hay. Cornstalks don't have that much actual nutrition, only 3% or 4% protein, but they provide valuable calories and roughage for ruminants and even for horses. It's  much cheaper than hay, and as long as you've got enough hay for the critter's regular rations, you can use the stalks as supplemental feed. It's especially valuable for cold weather...

 

[Peanut]

The way hay is stored makes a big difference. Beware of hay that has been stored in a shed on a concrete floor - the bottom row of bales are likely to be moldy. It's much better if the hay has been stored on pallets or something else that gets the bales up off the floor and allows some air flow underneath it. Hay that is weathered is ok - if it's packed tight when baled, it'll shed rain. The outer edge will turn brown or tan but it'll be fine.

Good call! Sitting here and realized '17 was the last year I cut hay, I've already forgotten a few things.

We had unwrapped round bales but stacked and covered them. I always used pallets, never had moldy hay (unless the poly cover tore).

Yeah, if buying hay and a guy is letting little things slip like getting hay off the ground... I'd be very wary. Might be letting other things slip that are harder to spot.

 

[sonya123]

Agreed. The hay guy having a day job is a good chunk of the problem. He has limited time to cut and bale and cannot make good use of ideal conditions or he might not get it done at all if he has a large amount to put up.

Also, is he just learning himself? If so, he will get better if he is meant to be a farmer.

He's not just learning, his parents owned the farm and he's been doing it forever. They have cattle and horses also. I think he just tried to dry it out too fast before baling it. Humidity was too high.
His horses are not going to eat this hay either

Today we will be feeding hay since everyone is in the barn. It's pouring and then a massive cold front and temp change, so we don't want anyone to get sick. Even the neighbor put his sheep in an area with shelter ( saw it yesterday) and they are usually out all the time
If we use square bales that will be about 4 of them

 

[sonya123]

Peanut that looks like nice hay. Our hay is stored in the barn upstairs ( wood floor) for the square bales and under the roof outside of another old barn for round ones . The round ones are wrapped

 

[Spikedriver]

Peanut that looks like nice hay. Our hay is stored in the barn upstairs ( wood floor) for the square bales and under the roof outside of another old barn for round ones . The round ones are wrapped

Wood is much better than concrete or dirt, but I've seen hay get moldy on wood in humid climates.

I bought hay one time. The barn it was stored in was extremely old, and the loft was very unique. The floor of the loft was build from what appeared to be saplings. These were about an inch or so apart and approximately the size of my wrist or smaller. It made perfect sense - many sticks would make a strong floor, but still provide ventilation. I would've hated to stack that first layer, though...