Help with deep well submersible water pumps

[Alaskajohn]

I am planning my projects for next year and I am thinking I should replace 240 volt pump that was installed in the early 1980s with something I can power with 120 volts. Ideally, I want to figure this early to help me size the correct generator, or to have it compatible with a solar power system I am also intending to install next year. The well is about 140 feet with water at 110 feet, its a pitless system and the well feeds a pressurized system.

The current well pump works fine and pumps out about 8-10 gallons per minute, but I could probably do with a bit less since we have a pressurized tank.

Looking through the online specs of certain systems, I know I need to be smarter about what is applicable. I have a 5KW generator, and ideally I would like to see a 120 volt system that can pump about 5 GPM from about 120 feet, which is where I think the current pump sits. I will figure out the exact depth later this summer when I have the time. The casing is standard size, about 4 or 5 inches. Of course I will measure the ID before buying, but the well head is in a protective cover and I need to finish a project adjacent to it before I remove the cover. Looking at spec sheets on many of the models, I am having a hard time finding the starting power need.

What else do I need to consider? A duckduckgo search gives me lots of hits with many brands and models, so it kind of like drinking from a firehose without knowing fully what I need to know.

 

[dunewalker]

Here's a pump that will work for you:
https://www.aquascience.net/grundfo...ubmersible-pump-5-gpm-1-2-hp-115v-2-wire-1601
I have one in my well, powered by solar panels with 4 golf cart batteries. How many panels/watts you need depends on how much water you use. Probably at least 200 watts of panels, 300 is better, 400 watts if you use a lot of water. Trial & error. Pump is 115 volts, soft start so no surge capacity needed, pumps around 5gpm depending on static water level. I have an inexpensive 1,000 watt inverter to power the pump, from Northern Tool. Of course you also need a charge controller to regulate your batteries, keep from over-charging.

 

[Alaskajohn]

Here's a pump that will work for you:
https://www.aquascience.net/grundfo...ubmersible-pump-5-gpm-1-2-hp-115v-2-wire-1601
I have one in my well, powered by solar panels with 4 golf cart batteries. How many panels/watts you need depends on how much water you use. Probably at least 200 watts of panels, 300 is better, 400 watts if you use a lot of water. Trial & error. Pump is 115 volts, soft start so no surge capacity needed, pumps around 5gpm depending on static water level. I have an inexpensive 1,000 watt inverter to power the pump, from Northern Tool. Of course you also need a charge controller to regulate your batteries, keep from over-charging.

Thank you! Am I reading this correctly that the max draw is 1.09KW? Would I need a pitless adaptor? The specs look impressive if I am reading them correctly.

 

[Sourdough]

What else do I need to consider?

One of the few smart "smart" pieces of advise I listened too was, Get a well pump that the "Condenser" is NOT on the pump but, inside your building. It basically going where the power exits the building. The number one thing to fail on a well pump is the "Condenser", so not having to pull the pump for beginning troubleshooting is a gift.

I was informed that I would be happier with a 220/240 well pump as it works 1/2 as hard, and in theory lasts longer. There is a place in Los'Anchorage that is not a "big-box" hardware store, they only deal with well pump sales and related components. Extremely knowledgeable, with the most employees having been at it for 30 plus years......topshelf operation. It is south of International Airport Road and just East of "C" Street around the corner from Greybar Electric, roughly 55'th street, maybe 56'th street.

 

[Alaskajohn]

One of the few smart "smart" pieces of advise I listened too was, Get a well pump that the "Condenser" is NOT on the pump but, inside your building. It basically going where the power exits the building. The number one thing to fail on a well pump is the "Condenser", so not having to pull the pump for beginning troubleshooting is a gift.

I was informed that I would be happier with a 220/240 well pump as it works 1/2 as hard, and in theory lasts longer. There is a place in Los'Anchorage that is not a "big-box" hardware store, they only deal with well pump sales and related components. Extremely knowledgeable, with the most employees having been at it for 30 plus years......topshelf operation. It is south of International Airport Road and just East of "C" Street around the corner from Greybar Electric, roughly 55'th street, maybe 56'th street.

I will hit that store this summer!! Thanks

The desire for a 120 volt is to have something a solar system can power if SHTF. I have a deep well bucket as a SHTF backup, but at 2 gallons per pull will get old as I get older.

 

[dunewalker]

I think it means that the maximum power it would use is 1,090 watts at the deepest static level it can push water from. My static water level is about 40' and the pump uses about 480 watts according to the digital watt meter on the inverter. Best to call the company, they have a really sharp tech support. Tell him how deep your well is & static level. Since yours is quite a bit deeper than mine, you probably need a larger inverter, like 1,500 watts, just to be sure.

The pitless adapter just lets you keep all your plumbing underground & below freezing level, so the pump should work same as the one you have now. Might need larger wire gauge due to lower voltage. That's the main reason most pumps are 220 volts, the length of wire to a deep well. I bought all the plastic pipe, wiring, pump, etc from that company aqua-tech at the same time. Since it's a soft-start, no surge, it doesn't need a torque arrestor to keep the pump from twisting the wires at start-up. Alaska John above may mean start capacitor instead of condenser, which is what is used to start a conventional pump, as I understand it--not sure about that though. My pump has been down there about 7 years now, still works perfectly.

 

[Neb]

In Europe capacitors are called condensers. Condenser is an old school term .

Ben

 

[viking]

Always remember that any AC motor has what is called "Locked Rotor Amperage", that is how you need to design a generator or solar inverter from, generally the initial motor amps will be twice the run amps until the motor gets up to speed. For example, a pump motor that runs at 7 amps will need 14 amps to he get it turning, if you don't account for that you will overload the generator or the inverter. take into consideration that any well pump is working against a head of water, coming or going out of a well. Another thing to take into consideration, if you are using an inverter is that some electronics and motors don't do well with square wave inverters and that probably includes modified sine wave inverters, I highly recommend pure sine wave inverters.

 

[dunewalker]

Viking, the Grundfos SQ pump I was talking about above has a "slow-start" feature that eliminates the initial surge. My inexpensive modified sine wave inverter has a digital wattage read-out that shows this when the pump is turned on--it first registers about 150 watts, then maybe 250, then stops at the working wattage, which in the case of my well is around 480 watts.

So the inverter is never asked to produce more than the working wattage. Apparently the pump doesn't mind modified sine wave, as it has been working fine for about 7 years now with no change in the numbers. It's only a domestic well, so I've never pumped enough to draw it down to where it doesn't recover daily. Well is 120 feet deep, pump is hung at 95 feet, static water level is around 40 feet.

Pump is not hooked up to a pressure tank, instead it fills a storage tank at the well site. I manually turn the pump on once a day to top off the tank. So the inverter stays shut off most of the time. The water gravity flows down to the main cabin 900 feet away, where I boost the pressure with a little Shur-Flo diaphragm pump, which does have a pressure switch, so the flow is always at around 25-45psi. Since the storage tank is only about 25 feet elevation above the cabin, I can also use water w/o the booster pump @ 10 or so psi.

 

[viking]

I've used a Grundfos pump at the grade school I worked for doing custodial/maintenance work, I installed it on a large hot water storage tank that circulated water to the dish washer, the thing I wanted was that the pump had a stainless steel impeller, the previous pump had a composite fiberglass impeller that fell apart from the heat and water treatment done at the water plant. You have made a good choice in your design. You are very fortunate to have static water level at 40', that helps to keep the load lower on your pump.

 

[Aerindel]

You could, or.....

I'm in a bit different situation, static water level 280' so nothing 120 is going to cut it. I decided that the cost for solar to power the pump isn't worth it as a couple gallons of propane or a little less in gasoline burned in my 240volt 9kw generator can run the pump long enough to put a months worth of water in my storage tank, from which a DC surflo pump can run everything else on solar. The generator only cost about $500 which is cheap compared to a solar system, inverter, etc powerful enough to run the pump.

 

[Alaskajohn]

Great discussion from all, as it fills me full of what are the questions and implications. Obviously not a one size fits all situation!

 

[Alaskajohn]

You could, or.....

I'm in a bit different situation, static water level 280' so nothing 120 is going to cut it. I decided that the cost for solar to power the pump isn't worth it as a couple gallons of propane or a little less in gasoline burned in my 240volt 9kw generator can run the pump long enough to put a months worth of water in my storage tank, from which a DC surflo pump can run everything else on solar. The generator only cost about $500 which is cheap compared to a solar system, inverter, etc powerful enough to run the pump.

I would love to go with propane, but every time I go down that path I have so many people tell me it gets to cold to use propane efficiently during the winter months where I am at. There are so many advantages to propane that I keep coming back to it.

 

[Aerindel]

I would love to go with propane, but every time I go down that path I have so many people tell me it gets to cold to use propane efficiently during the winter months where I am at. There are so many advantages to propane that I keep coming back to it.

Well, I never used it to run an engine, but when I lived in fairbanks, I used it for cooking and it worked fine even in the -30s and -40s, it was just a normal 5 gallon small tank outside.

Honestly, with a gas detector, I would not have an qalms about keeping say a 10 gallon tank (the basis of my propane here as trucks won't come up my road), inside if cold was a problem.

For that matter, its not like solar likes extreme cold either, so I'm not sure propane is really any more trouble or danger, than a battery bank in the cold.

 

[Alaskajohn]

Well, I never used it to run an engine, but when I lived in fairbanks, I used it for cooking and it worked fine even in the -30s and -40s, it was just a normal 5 gallon small tank outside.

Honestly, with a gas detector, I would not have an qalms about keeping say a 10 gallon tank (the basis of my propane here as trucks won't come up my road), inside if cold was a problem.

For that matter, its not like solar likes extreme cold either, so I'm not sure propane is really any more trouble or danger, than a battery bank in the cold.

We have a 120 gallon propane tank outside that during the winter is completely covered in snow sometimes 3-4 feet deep above the tank, and the stove works just fine. But I am told by the people selling the generators that the cold propane just won’t efficiently run the generator. We don’t get “Fairbanks“ type cold except for maybe 6-8 days max (3 days one cold spell and 4 days the next cold spell) each winter where we will have -35 temps and 50 mph winds, and we simply hunker down unless we have to go outside. Then it’s back to t-shirt weather at -10, near zero humidity and almost zero wind. Perfect winters really. Seams like I could make propane work, but every dealer steers me away from it.

 

[Aklogcabin]

I would suggest getting a hold of the folks at Penn-Jersey drilling slash pump and well service north of wasilla. They have drilled in that area and are very familiar with it. They are a family run operation. And great folks who offer 24 hour emergency service. And they do remote work.
Maybe next time you go south they are about mile 50 Parks highway.

 

[Alaskajohn]

I would suggest getting a hold of the folks at Penn-Jersey drilling slash pump and well service north of wasilla. They have drilled in that area and are very familiar with it. They are a family run operation. And great folks who offer 24 hour emergency service. And they do remote work.
Maybe next time you go south they are about mile 50 Parks highway.

I am heading out that way tomorrow to pick up my sled that’s in the shop out that direction. I hope to carve out time to swing by. Always pressed for time when I’m in town it appears.

 

[Aklogcabin]

Just past the BL cut off on the right. They generally have folks in the office