Hydralic Ram Pump

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Biggkidd

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Irrigation and critters. Cistern water for the house. Which as thin as rain has been lately we may have to resort back to creek water upon occasion. We've had to before.
 

Aerindel

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Can any of you guys with experience with these pumps tell me if one would work in the following situation? I have a large creek on one corner of my property. It has almost ZERO fall less than a foot per hundred feet I'd bet. Being about 24 feet wide and 12 to 18 inches deep where I can access it. It also catches HUGE storm surges where the water really rolls and gets 5 + feet deeper at these times. At that point the water washes across lowlands across from me. Problem 1) the creek is 175 feet below where I need water according to the surveyors. 2) My pipe run as of now is about 1800-2000 feet. The pipe is 1 inch poly and I currently use a Delavan roller pump belt driven from a 5 or 6 horse Honda engine. I get about 15-20 GPM free flow or enough pressure to run a bidirectional sprinkler head for crops. A ram pump if it would work would be so much nicer, quieter and fuelless. Best it could run all the time from what I understand.
CAN ONE DO THE JOB?

Thanks for any help and or input!
Probably not. Its not a matter of the elevation you are pumping to, its lack of drop for your drive water. A ram pump is entirely powered by the potential energy of falling water. If you have no fall, you have nothing to work with.

However....there are other kinds of pumps that do not require a lot of fall, just enough volume of water moving:

Consider this design:

spiral water wheel pump
 

Biggkidd

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Same option I came up with just not possible with the storm surges we get. Plus other than storms or after heavy rain it's pretty hard to tell the water is flowing at all. Thanks though!
 

UrbanHunter

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Can any of you guys with experience with these pumps tell me if one would work in the following situation? I have a large creek on one corner of my property. It has almost ZERO fall less than a foot per hundred feet I'd bet. Being about 24 feet wide and 12 to 18 inches deep where I can access it. It also catches HUGE storm surges where the water really rolls and gets 5 + feet deeper at these times. At that point the water washes across lowlands across from me. Problem 1) the creek is 175 feet below where I need water according to the surveyors. 2) My pipe run as of now is about 1800-2000 feet. The pipe is 1 inch poly and I currently use a Delavan roller pump belt driven from a 5 or 6 horse Honda engine. I get about 15-20 GPM free flow or enough pressure to run a bidirectional sprinkler head for crops. A ram pump if it would work would be so much nicer, quieter and fuelless. Best it could run all the time from what I understand.
CAN ONE DO THE JOB?

Thanks for any help and or input!
175' is a big lift, on one of my travels I saw water wheels in Lanzhou China, these were tall slow moving paddle wheels that scooped up water and then dumped it into a basin feeding a pipe about 25' above the river surface. The volume of water lifted was very low compared to the water passing though the wheel. The wheels I saw were on a river with very little drop but there was flow.
 

Biggkidd

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175' is a big lift, on one of my travels I saw water wheels in Lanzhou China, these were tall slow moving paddle wheels that scooped up water and then dumped it into a basin feeding a pipe about 25' above the river surface. The volume of water lifted was very low compared to the water passing though the wheel. The wheels I saw were on a river with very little drop but there was flow.
That's actually a design I have copied on paper here for after SHTF. I think a short dam to pinch the width down from 24 would allow it to work here. I think it would have to be a floating rig though on account of storm surges. I even have cable to anchor it on hand. Still don't know if it could withstand the 5+ foot storm surges we get and I'd still need a lot more poly pipe I don't have on hand.
 
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UrbanHunter

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That's actually a design I have copied on paper here for after SHTF. I think a short dam to pinch the width down from 24 would allow it to work here. I think it would have to be a floating rig though on account of storm surges. I even have cable to anchor it on hand. Still don't know if it could withstand the 5+ foot storm surges we get and I'd still need a lot more poly pipe I don't have on hand.
When you described your problem I came to the conclusion that you would most likely need a hybrid approach, possibly a water wheel to raise water into a cistern or elevated holding tank/pond that was no more than 20' above the stream, then use some sort of ram pump to move part of the holding tank water to a higher elevation while letting the discharge go back into the stream.

The wheels I saw in China were mounted on concrete walls parallel to the stream, they were not that wide and the paddles were designed such that in high flow conditions water could actually flow over/around the paddle. But, as you can see in the last picture they were able to get quite a lift (almost the diameter of the wheel).
1627469321442.png
1627469383216.png
1627469498095.png
 
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UrbanHunter

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You got me to thinking about when I was a little boy at Disney Land and their water lifting device:
1627470434010.png

A water wheel with a pulley system lifting cups of water using a rope ladder arrangement, the lift would be limited by the torque of the wheel, the gear ratio, the weight difference between the empty and full cups, and don't forget the total drag of the system. It is cute and fun.......
 

UrbanHunter

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I just saw the post on the "hippo Water roller" and something hit me, a simple water wheel but use a chain (bycycle?) to drive a crankshaft tied to a piston in cylinder and a pair of check valves for inlet and outlet valves, the piston could push water into a pipe/hose and get the lift you need, it would be slow/low flow but it would be constant pulsing flow. With a typical piston and a stroke you could get 100 psi to the line and that could give you the lift you need. Just borrow @Neb 's steam engine parts (or an old lawn mower).

I remember that one of my uncles had pumper trucks that used 6 cylinder engines tied to a PTO shaft to act as a pump to fill a sludge tank. Same principal only small scale....
 

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I've built a steam engine and made limited power with it. So I fully get the piston idea and combining it with a water wheel could be doable. More food for thought THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Neb

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I've built a steam engine and made limited power with it. So I fully get the piston idea and combining it with a water wheel could be doable. More food for thought THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!
I would to learn more about your steam engine!

I have the casting to make 5 of these.



I still need to get it running under steam and learn how to operate it. It is a goal of mine.

Ben
 

Biggkidd

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Oh wow you have the real deal! I made mine out of scrap and junk. I think there is an old video of it running on you tube if I can find it I'll post a link.
 

Biggkidd

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Okay found three very short clips.


I learned enough I could build one in times of need out of recycled junk which was my goal at the time.

It could have / would have run much better and made more power but my homemade boiler wasn't up to the task. I also learned enough about them to build a MUCH better unit much like our old rocket stove water heater.
 

Neb

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Okay found three very short clips.


I learned enough I could build one in times of need out of recycled junk which was my goal at the time.

It could have / would have run much better and made more power but my homemade boiler wasn't up to the task. I also learned enough about them to build a MUCH better unit much like our old rocket stove water heater.
Nice!

Looks like a compressor was used?

How did you make the boiler?

I have plans for a boiler that I hope to build some day.


The ready to fire that comply with code are pricey!


How you lubricating the engine?

I never gave that much thought until someone mentioned steam oil. It is thick at room temps but designed for running under steam.

I have been watching videos from this guy


He is full of good steam engine info.

Dave Richards


Has what he believes is the only operating steam fired machine shop in north america. I would like to someday adapt my machine shop to run on steam and use it to build steam engines.

Calm down Ben!

Ben
 

UrbanHunter

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@Neb 's talk about lubrication hit a cord, if you are using an piston type of water pump you will need to think about how you will lubricated it (especially the piston rings), I had considered grease fittings for the bearings and an inverted design so you could have oil collect at the piston..... rust is not good for sealing, but lots of oil in your water is not good either, I guess you could use vegetable oil to reduce the risk.
 
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Biggkidd

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Neb it was largely air compressor parts with a wood splitter control valve letting the steam in and out. You hit right on one major problem oil / oil contamination. The design in the video had issues. What I came up with to solve those were a second block and extension rods. That got the steam away from the oil. My boiler was a part of our home heating outdoor stove at the time. If I were doing it now I would go with a rocket design. Pretty much the exact same design I used for heating hot water sorry pics were on my old computer that died.

Urbanhunter Far as the piston for a water pump it would move slow and cold enough the water itself is all the lube that would be needed I expect. One teaspoon of any kind of oil can contaminate thousands of gallons of water. That's why old pumps used leathers for seals.
 
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