Less then Lethal 12 gauge rounds

Discussion in 'Shotgun Forum' started by Lucian253, Jan 2, 2018.

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  1. Jan 2, 2018 #1

    Lucian253

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    Does anyone run beanbag rounds or rubber pellet rounds in their home defense shotgun? I was thinking of loading the first, or a couple rounds of one of these loads in my home defense shotgun. Opinions, or experiences with this type of load would be appreciated. Thanks!!
     
  2. Jan 4, 2018 #2

    aDave

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    I just had a discussion with my son about home defense shotguns (ironically) as I was on my way to an ammo store to pick up 2000 12 ga target rounds. The same store sold less-lethal rounds as well which I'd never seen or considered for the civilian market.

    I don't use a home defense shotgun, but I'll still offer my $.02. :p

    Personally, I would never, ever, mix a non-lethal round in a personal defense firearm as too much can go wrong. Moreover, in the civilian world, if you have the option to use a less lethal round, you probably also have the option to retreat. If I'm grabbing a gun, it's to protect from death or serious bodily injury. No need for less lethal at that point.
     
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  3. Jan 4, 2018 #3

    SHOOTER13

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    I was going to say the same thing yesterday...

    If you find an unknown perp in your home @ 0'dark thirty in the morning...do you really want to hit him with a non-lethal bean bag or rubber bullet...and then get shot with his more than lethal gun for the trouble...!!??

    Non-Lethal Bean Bag and Rubber Bullet Loads are used by the Military and Police for crowd control...not by civilians trying to protect themselves and loved ones.

    That ******* picked the wrong house and guy to mess with...put his dumb ass on a slab and don't look back...especially IF you have the castle doctrine law on your side.

    My 2 cents...I'm NOT a lawyer...but I DO have one who specializes in 2nd Amendment cases and justifiable and lawful self defense shootings...AS SHOULD YOU !!

    .
     
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  4. Jan 4, 2018 #4

    Supervisor42

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    Completely agree. I'm not sure what you would use them for. Maybe if you had a party and a guest goes bezerk and starts smashing stuff?
    huh.gif
    A wild animal in your yard that you want gone, but don't want to kill?
    I just can't see much civilian use for less-than-lethal.
    If someone is in my home and is a threat, well I know they have plenty of spare thugs, and they won't miss just one.
    :rolleyes:
    I think Lucian is waaay too kind. Probably spend the rest of his life paying a lawsuit for "disabling" a perp from a career of breaking into people's houses.
    Don't laugh, it happens.
     
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  5. Jan 4, 2018 #5

    aDave

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    I wondered about an animal control issue after I typed my reply. I guess I could see its use for that. With people, however, I don't see it as a valid (civilian) option.
     
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  6. Jan 4, 2018 #6

    Lucian253

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    I’m not too kind. WA State isn’t the greatest state to have to defend your home. Even if I’m cleared criminally, I’d still get hung out in civil court. I got the responses I thought I would though, lol. Just thought I’d check to make sure. Thanks all!!
     
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  7. Jan 4, 2018 #7

    Supervisor42

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    I didn't think about it enough.
    One of the two magazine tubes on my KSG is loaded with less-than-lethal right now.
    Down here, that's what 7-1/2 shot is.
    wink.gif
     
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  8. Jan 4, 2018 #8

    SHOOTER13

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    OH...Washington State.

    Yea...the liberals will try to screw you there. Which is all the more reason to drop him dead...

    The Perp probably has more rights than you...

    Here in Pennsylvania...considered a Blue State because of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh ( DON'T get me started )...we still have some of the best gun laws in the country.

    Including our State Constitution (ratified September 28, 1776)...which predates the 2nd Amendment (December 15, 1791)...declares:

    XIII. That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the state; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; And that the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

    ==================================

    FYI:
    The castle doctrine, also known as a castle law or a defense of habitation law, is a legal doctrine that designates a person's abode or any legally occupied place – e.g., a vehicle or home – as a place in which that person has protections and immunities permitting one, in certain circumstances, to use force to defend oneself against an intruder, free from legal prosecution for the consequences of the force used.

    .
     
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  9. Jan 4, 2018 #9

    SHOOTER13

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    KSG....NICE !!

    7 1/2 shot....:D
     
  10. Jan 4, 2018 #10

    SHOOTER13

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    .

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    ^^ Bore Constriction...Yards ^^

    Red - Pattern small & tight | Yellow - Pattern spreading out 1 inch per 1 yard | Green - Optimal if shooting upland game...NOT Perps

    .
     
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  11. Jan 4, 2018 #11

    Lucian253

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    I used to be an investigator with Pierce Count Dept of Assigned Council, AKA Public Pretender...Defender. In WA a guy can break in my house, grab my tv and walkout backwards and I can’t shoot him. Only if he moves forwards towards me aggressively. Then I can shoot. I’ve seen good people get worked by system too many times.

    https://www.inlander.com/spokane/a-time-to-kill/Content?oid=2154779&media=AMP+HTML
     

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  12. Jan 4, 2018 #12

    Supervisor42

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    Alabama accepts new residents every day.:D
    See how much argument they could find with this:
    Section 13A-3-25
    Use of force in defense of premises.
    (a) A person in lawful possession or control of premises, as defined in Section 13A-3-20, or a person who is licensed or privileged to be thereon, may use physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission of a criminal trespass by the other person in or upon such premises.

    (b) A person may use deadly physical force under the circumstances set forth in subsection (a) of this section only:

    (1) In defense of a person, as provided in Section 13A-3-23; or

    (2) When he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent the commission of arson in the first or second degree by the trespasser.

    (Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §620.)

    Simple. Short. Sweet. Like we like it.
    This is our home.
    ...and nobody don't fok wid us. (from the movie Southern Comfort)
     
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  13. Jan 4, 2018 #13

    hiwall

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    "Less then Lethal 12 gauge rounds"
    I can understand someone not really wanting to kill another human. This is easy to accomplish with a shotgun in your home using standard rounds. Just aim for the leg or arm or groin.
     
  14. Jan 4, 2018 #14

    EasyCZ_tfa

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    I’m going to side with Dave and the other guys on never using non-lethal rounds in a SD situation. I’m especially steering clear of mixing non-lethal with lethal ammo.
     
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  15. Jan 4, 2018 #15

    Supervisor42

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    I think it's to be able to argue in court that you were not using 'deadly force' if your gun was full of bean-bags.

    For bad-guys coming into our state, they should have this on a billboard:

    Section 13A-3-23

    ...
    A person may use deadly physical force, and is legally presumed to be justified in using deadly physical force in self-defense or the defense of another person pursuant to subdivision (5), if the person reasonably believes that another person is:

    (1) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force.

    (2) Using or about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling while committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling.

    (3) Committing or about to commit a kidnapping in any degree, assault in the first or second degree, burglary in any degree, robbery in any degree, forcible rape, or forcible sodomy.
    ...
    I voted for the guys that wrote this.

    If a perp is holding my TV set, I believe he's going to throw it at me.
    Consider him toast.
    @Lucian, people are real nice down here, come see us.
    :D
     
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  16. Jan 4, 2018 #16

    Lucian253

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    Maybe someday. I’m staying in Tac Town, WA at least until my parents are no longer living. We are tight knit group.
     
  17. Jan 5, 2018 #17

    RevV

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    Like several others, it seems to me that you either need to use lethal force or you don't,
    and the gray area in between (where non-lethal ammo would make sense) is the land of frivolous lawsuits!
     
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  18. Jan 7, 2018 #18

    BuzzinSATX

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    Remember, for discussion purposes, we might not ought to look at this from the perspective of "Lethal versus Non-Lethal" and focus on the requirement. If you are using a shotgun for the defense of your home and family, just like any other tool you would use, you need to consider the required end result...end the threat. End the threat means stopping the advancement of the attacker towards what you are defending.

    Ending the threat means anything from the attacker turning tail and running, falling down in a fetal position and surrendering, or being shot and stopping. Will the non-lethal option produce the desired outcome? It may or may not. That can happen with lethal rounds as well, but if you have a determined attacker, perhaps one on drugs, or multiple aggressive threats, perhaps not.

    Food for thought.
     
  19. Jan 7, 2018 #19

    Supervisor42

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    Well there may well be a "home defense" scenario where non-lethal would be best. I stretched my imagination and there is one.
    I had to put myself in Chicago.
    Cops use non-lethal for rioters. Ones that aren't a deadly threat, but are destroying property.
    Let's say 2 people are busy stealing the wheels off the car in your driveway, or destroying something of value outside your home.
    Throwing words at them is not enough. Buckshot is too much, and 7-1/2's are a bit much. But we're certainly not going to let them slide.
    Beanbags would be perfect.
     
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  20. Jan 7, 2018 #20

    rbbeers

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    What Dave said...;)
    Best regards,
    Bob:smilie flag:
     
  21. Jan 7, 2018 #21

    Supervisor42

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    Oh, me too. If they are inside the house, they will be carried out by the coroner.
    But what would you use to stop thugs destroying/stealing stuff outside your home?
    They know they can outrun the cops because they have a head start and they will be back if not thwarted.
     
  22. Jan 7, 2018 #22

    BuzzinSATX

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    Maybe...I don’t know.

    Maybe in places so anti gun, that’s what insurance is for...

    I don’t know their laws, but suspect that in Chicago, you’d still be in trouble if you discharged your firearm. And anyone brave enough to ignore me when I address them while holding a shotgun may not be deterred by a beanbag.
     
  23. Jan 7, 2018 #23

    rbbeers

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    Hi, Super!

    Yep! I understand.

    First, just let me say that it's not my intention to change anyone's beliefs. I simply offered mine.

    That said, I'll explain them a bit more.

    It's my job to stay alive and in good health to provide for our family. If any of us are threatened with serious injury or death, I'll attempt to stop the threat with any means at my disposal.

    However, if the threat is obviously 'property only', I'll not risk escalating the situation into a (possible) deadly confrontation. We'll call 911 and become the best witnesses we can be (from a safe distance).

    I'd rather we have to use our homeowners insurance than to have to use our medical insurance or our death benefits (because a fight erupted with the bad guy).

    But, that's just me.

    Best regards,
    Bob:smilie flag:
     
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  24. Jan 7, 2018 #24

    Supervisor42

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    I don't know about that, they look pretty potent to me...
    1 beanbag:
    [​IMG]
    I don't think it would take many to completely change someone's way of thinking.

    @Bob: I probably would too. I'm just trying to find a plausible civilian use for non-lethal rounds.
    And if I did, I'd probably go with rubber buckshot instead of beanbag. Don't have to be as accurate and it would still put a spanking on them from a safe distance:
    [​IMG]
     
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  25. Jan 7, 2018 #25

    RevV

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    Makes sense to me, but in that scenario, I would expect the perps to sue the nice guy who chose to use non-lethal alternatives.
    These days, perps often have more rights than good guys.
     

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