Lies "for the greater good"

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VThillman

VThillman

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Facebook says I posted this 2 years ago to my friends. Dunno if I posted in here, but think it's worth repeating anyway.
- Bulletin: Lying as a force for Good -
I am currently reading a book on anthropological basics which attempts to explain 50 of the areas of study in one minute or less each. Takes me longer than that, because I tend to read nonfiction by 'reading slow and sifting fine'. During the page on the subject of politics, the scholar states that lying is a basic tool for the politician. I am not shocked by this revelation. Many politicians seem to pride themselves on their vision of The Greater Good - the pursuit of which justifies their lies, and apparently their driving.
 
When your current Vice President was ask how she could serve a President that during the debates she said was incapable. She smiled and said, "That was just a debate".

Or how about when a politician denies the video proof that they did a 180 degree turn on what they claimed was their unshakable earlier belief?

Or when the wife askes if the new pants make her butt look big...
 
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The problem with "lying for the greater good" is that once you are found out, not matter what your original motivations were, your credibility is shot from then on out.

This is what has occurred with Fauci. Earlier, when he said masks were useless and we didn't need to wear them, his motivation may have been to preserve the existing and scarce masks for the medical community. Not a horrendous goal in and of itself. But he should have been straightforward and said something like "Masks may be of some minimal use to individuals, probably not much at all because we don't know how to use them appropriately, so we should let the medical professionals who actually know how to use them correctly have them instead". He chose not to do that. Instead, he lied. His motivations may have been good, yet still, he lied. That completely destroyed his credibility now that he is promoting masks. It doesn't matter whether masks are actually useful or not, the problem is that he has no credibility any more - because he lied. He dug his hole deeper when he said/impled that new information had come out about masks that made him change his mind. Another lie. Masks have been around for over a century. Airborne viruses, much longer than that. Sorry Fauci, there is no "new information" about masks that came out in the last 6 months that would warrant a 180 turnaround in your recommendations. At this point, Fauci is trying to preserve/restore his credibility. It is a losing cause. He may not be the monster/idiot people are making him out to be, but he is no longer credible and really just needs to go away at this point. He is part of the problem, not the solution.

Mostly because he "lied for the greater good". That can be a real gotcha.
 
A lie is a lie. It is wrong and nothing makes it right.
Trust requires truth and respect and lies bring neither.
 
I had to think a long time to come up with when a lie would be acceptable.
When the government is asked about a particular thing and their response is:
"Our military does not have that capability yet".
There are still a few things if I was asked about, I would have to lie or go to prison.
 
There are times when a lie might be appropriate. The example above about military capabilities is a good example.

However, it better not be a lie that you could ever get caught in. And it better not be a lie with malicious intent or to defraud. It has to be a lie with sincere good intent, and it (usually) would be a lie to a very small audience (like one person). There are very few places that a lie to a large audience is a good idea. The above example of military capabilities might be about the only exception. But it would have to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

e.g., If a patient on their deathbed said, "I sure hope I don't have Alzheimer's" and you knew for a fact that they had been diagnosed with it, a response of "We all have occasional memory problems, don't worry about it" would be just fine IMHO. That is a lie (by omission), but certainly not a malicious one.

A lie is not a black and white thing. It's close to that, but there is a little room for a speck of gray here and there in some circumstances.
 
I wholeheartedly disagree. A lie is never the right choice.
If everyone knew the truth we could cooperate to make things better. Without secrets and lies countries could work together for a better world instead of trying to be the biggest power.
 
a) 'The Road to Hell is paved with 'Good Intentions'.. :rolleyes: and..

b)
SheepDog said:
..A lie is never the right choice.
Click to expand...

I dearly Hope (and, will 'extrapolate Yes', for the benefit of the doubt :cool: that you Only mean in 'this Context' of political-intrigue.. Yes? :)

Ergo: a "Lie" - to Save / Protect your 'MAG' / Group / Family-member / Friend, etc - would seem a 'righteous' application of one, and/or, even 'subterfuge', if that was necessary.... No? 🤔

.02
jd
 
SheepDog said:
I wholeheartedly disagree. A lie is never the right choice.
If everyone knew the truth we could cooperate to make things better. Without secrets and lies countries could work together for a better world instead of trying to be the biggest power.
Click to expand...
I agree.

I was on the security alert team that guarded the nukes on board. We were taught to recite;

"
I can neither confirm or deny the presence of nuclear weapons onboard the USS Detroit.
"

While knew when they were onboard I had standing orders not to reveal if there were or weren't onboard.

Jesus taught "Let you yes mean yes and your no mean no." He said it. Who am I to argue?

Ben
 
SoJer said:
a) 'The Road to Hell is paved with 'Good Intentions'.. :rolleyes: and..

b)


I dearly Hope (and, will 'extrapolate Yes', for the benefit of the doubt :cool: that you Only mean in 'this Context' of political-intrigue.. Yes? :)

Ergo: a "Lie" - to Save / Protect your 'MAG' / Group / Family-member / Friend, etc - would seem a 'righteous' application of one, and/or, even 'subterfuge', if that was necessary.... No? 🤔

.02
jd
Click to expand...

Is a lie ever necessary? Only if you are in a position that requires you to protect a secret. It is still wrong, it is still a lie.
If my wife were to ask if a pair of pants or a dress made her but look fat I would grab her by the waist and pull her back to my front and say, "It feels just fine to me." which is neither a lie nor an omission. If my wife lied to protect me from prosecution could I trust and respect her?
While a lie can be easier it is never the truth. It never promotes trust or respect.
Just like speeding it is wrong whether you are caught or not.

I don't expect anyone to share my morals - that would be insanity, but I do prefer their honesty with and about me.
 
SheepDog said:
A lie is never the right choice.
If everyone knew the truth we could cooperate to make things better.
Click to expand...
Here's a hypothetical for you. An unexpected encounter at SheepDog's door, out of the blue:
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"ATF agents. Per executive order from Joe Biden last night, we are here to confiscate your firearms. You are hereby commanded to tell us where they all are and surrender them."

Would you:
(a) Tell them the truth and cooperate to make things better?
(b) Lie and mislead them about the existence, quantity and/or location of all, or at least some of your firearms?

Be sure and tell the truth in your answer.
 
I will lie to soften a blow or no those paints are okay, but the color is not the best for your complexion. If I am caught late I will man up.
I however will not compromise the truth. Like love, death, bullying, hurting for the fun of it. The bible, the constitution, family & friends or companions in arms.
 
joel said:
I will lie to soften a blow or no those paints are okay, but the color is not the best for your complexion. If I am caught late I will man up.
I however will not compromise the truth. Like love, death, bullying, hurting for the fun of it. The bible, the constitution, family & friends or companions in arms.
Click to expand...
I did not understand that even one little bit. Sorry.
 
Haertig said:
Here's a hypothetical for you. An unexpected encounter at SheepDog's door, out of the blue:
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"ATF agents. Per executive order from Joe Biden last night, we are here to confiscate your firearms. You are hereby commanded to tell us where they all are and surrender them."

Would you:
(a) Tell them the truth and cooperate to make things better?
(b) Lie and mislead them about the existence, quantity and/or location of all, or at least some of your firearms?

Be sure and tell the truth in your answer.
Click to expand...
There is a 3rd option, but I will exercise my right to remain silent.
 
dademoss said:
There is a 3rd option, but I will exercise my right to remain silent.
Click to expand...
It is not a binary option.

?
Do you have a warrant?

By what authority is my 2nd amendment rights being infringed?

Do you represent the local sheriff?


What action will you take if I refuse to comply?

Give be a minute to call my lawyer.

I will be live streaming this.

I'm ready to meet my maker are you?

Ben
 
Neb said:
It is not a binary option.

?
Do you have a warrant?

By what authority is my 2nd amendment rights being infringed?

Do you represent the local sheriff?


What action will you take if I refuse to comply?

Give be a minute to call my lawyer.

I will be live streaming this.

I'm ready to meet my maker are you?

Ben
Click to expand...
I should take your council and have more patience. ...... Probably not gonna work for me :(. "Light em up"
 
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Sorry, but "Acceptable Lie" is an oxymoron. I don't think that is what the Big Guy had in mind when Moses came down from the mount with them written in stone. If you can't tell the truth then say so. No lie is acceptable.
 
Haertig said:
Here's a hypothetical for you. An unexpected encounter at SheepDog's door, out of the blue:
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"ATF agents. Per executive order from Joe Biden last night, we are here to confiscate your firearms. You are hereby commanded to tell us where they all are and surrender them."

Would you:
(a) Tell them the truth and cooperate to make things better?
(b) Lie and mislead them about the existence, quantity and/or location of all, or at least some of your firearms?

Be sure and tell the truth in your answer.
Click to expand...
(c) Use your Constitutional right to remain silent.
 
Haertig said:
Here's a hypothetical for you. An unexpected encounter at SheepDog's door, out of the blue:
"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"ATF agents. Per executive order from Joe Biden last night, we are here to confiscate your firearms. You are hereby commanded to tell us where they all are and surrender them."

Would you:
(a) Tell them the truth and cooperate to make things better?
(b) Lie and mislead them about the existence, quantity and/or location of all, or at least some of your firearms?

Be sure and tell the truth in your answer.
Click to expand...

I would say, "I don't recognize your authority and I am sure there will be blood shed if you persist."
 
What about "tactical deception"?

In the bible, heroes made use of that. Ehud stated that he had a message for the king. It was a ruse, in order to get him alone. Then Ehud assassinated him.

Deception is a part of warfare. Not all warfare is military in nature. Honesty is vital in personal and business dealings. I'm no longer convinced that our federal government deserves our honesty. If they can't give it, they can't expect it in return...
 
The Lazy L said:
Just because "they" choose to ignore the Constitution doesn't mean I'll make the same choice.
Click to expand...
The Constitution is to restrain the government, not the citizen. I will not obey unconstitutional orders. We all choose our own path.
 
I am very much interested in the psychology (for a better word) of lying because of what began in 2009. For the first time in my life a person, a sheriff's deputy, fabricated a story consisting of several lies, against me and my husband. His story made me a villain and him a victim of me. He also claimed that my husband assisted him in arresting me...after he pepper-sprayed the both of us, point blank. There was never any investigation, the deputy's written statement was simply accepted as the truth.

It's like he created several immaterial "facts" that he knew we would deny, just so it would make him seem to hold all the truth. I'd like to find out if this is common with liars. We have plenty of documented reasons to believe that the responding deputy (sergeant) assisted him in fabricating his story, but the sheriff protects his boys. That deputy gave the local newspaper reporter "facts" for a front-page article. My husband and I walked into the newspaper office the next morning and he asked the reporter why he was never mentioned in the article, and she said that she was never told that he was even there. It was all targeted at me from the start.

He had plenty of motive to lie about what actually happened, he had been convicted of killing an innocent man, walking near, but not within the lines a state route, 5 years earlier. In other words, he negligently ran off the road. He intentionally took his eyes off the road to reach for a can of tobacco on the passenger side floorboard. He was employed by a juvenile detention center and got off with no arrest, no time behind bars, and plea bargained to a misdemeanor of vehicular manslaughter (vs. homicide) and only 5 years of non-reporting probation. He didn't even have to pay the family for the man's funeral. It's appalling. People get more for killing an animal. And the man's life and death was completely erased by the court 10 years later for the benefit of the deputy (except for those of us who acquired copies of court records and patrol reports before that.)

He was being paid by a private company at the time, and he said he was hired "because she was yelling".

I had filed a civil complaint against that company for unlawfully (and completely) blocking the public road and our driveway without a road work permit a month earlier, that was pending a hearing. After this, the county officials testified that the private company not only did not possess a road work permit, but there wasn't even an application. And the sheriff hired him out along with a couple other deputies for 3 days, along with cruisers, and that's unlawful in Ohio, the cruiser part includes penalties of imprisonment for unofficial use. But there's no one above the sheriff, so he does what he wants. The commissioners even deposited $10/hour for use of the cruisers unlawfully solicited by the sheriff.

Can anyone here point me to some good resources regarding the psychology of liars, even better if there's something out there specifically relating to those in law enforcement?

I have new evidence regarding his "credibility" that I intend to file in the case.

I'd like to find a computer animator to hire, so that I can have visuals to submit along with the text of his different versions of his story (that I have from his own testimony in ultimately settled federal court proceedings years later). Does anyone here do this kind of thing or know anyone who does? The advertised pros online don't even respond to inquiries.

What would be the most effective way to upload and document (and maintain) my hundreds of pages of testimony and photos, so that I can provide links for anyone who is interested? A particular free web hosting service or can this be done on a blog?

I already have many of his contradictions typed out with the transcripts page/line numbers referenced, which is part of what I would file in court.

I need to nail his "credibility" to the wall for good and force him out of "law enforcement" for the sake of others. I've heard too many stories since this happened, it's so not just about me and all of my constitutional rights that have been stripped from me. I'm not anti cops, just anti corrupt cops. My brother is a LEO in a big city and he moved into traffic accidents investigation early on. He told me that he knows there is corruption within, but he's in a job where he doesn't directly have to deal with it.
 
Yes.
 
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