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Discussion in 'Woodworking' started by rusty, Jun 11, 2018.

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  1. Jun 11, 2018 #1

    rusty

    rusty

    rusty

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    All the lumber I can find is pure crap anymore. 10 years ago, clear pine was everywhere. Have to make kid's stuff from pine, could not sell it if it was from anything else, too expensive.
     
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  2. Jun 11, 2018 #2

    Weedygarden

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    I have noticed that it is not easy to find good lumber either. I tend to usually go to Home Depot because I live closest to it as a lumber source. I wonder if there might be a place to get better quality lumber? I am sure it would come with a higher price tag as well.
     
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  3. Jun 11, 2018 #3

    hashbrown

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    Lumber is expensive and junk at the moment! This is a photo of my framers stacking stud culls for return, over 500 culls on studs alone in the building I just dried in!

    culls.jpg
     
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  4. Jun 11, 2018 #4

    phideaux

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    Treated lumber is even worse I think,

    Just crap.



    Jim
     
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  5. Jun 11, 2018 #5

    hashbrown

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    # 2 select treated is twice as good as #1 at the moment! It's really screwy right now plus I've had to add another 25% to my lumber budgets to keep buildings profitable. All I can do is pass it on to the purchasers. Building cost is going up faster than sales prices.
     
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  6. Jun 11, 2018 #6

    TMT Tactical

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    From my perspective steel studs are the way to go. Expensive you bet, but no rot, warping, and the critters don't like to chew on them. As a competitive contractor, they are a no - go. For a home buyer who plans to stay, maybe for several generation, they are the best option, IMHO. That is what I plan to use in the THH project. One added benefit, they don't burn.
     
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  7. Jun 11, 2018 #7

    Caribou

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    The don't burn but they do warp in a fire. A wood house will stand longer than steel studs in a fire. Have you considered concrete?
     
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  8. Jun 11, 2018 #8

    backlash

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    Tariffs on Canadain soft wood did not help the lumber prices in the US
     
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  9. Jun 11, 2018 #9

    TMT Tactical

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    The Great Lizard ! Neighbor

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    Concrete exterior walls, steel stud interior walls. There is no such thing as a fire proof home but concrete walls, steel roof and roof mounted sprinkler system, should provide the best chance against wind blown burning material. The grounds around housing structures will be cleared of all combustible material. Another benefit of concrete walls is it temperature mitigation. Again more expensive against wood siding or stucco but long terms more cost effective. I had considered stucco over steel studs, but as you pointed out, enough heat and they do warp. Please feel free to offer any other suggestions related to my comment about the THH project. I never claimed to know everything, no matter what my wife says. :D
     
  10. Jun 11, 2018 #10

    hashbrown

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    I find steel stud construction vulgar and ugly! I can take a steel stud and wad it up with my bare hands, you wont do that with a good ole piece of pine. It's kind of like a friend of mine that is building concrete log homes with 1/2 inch steel roofing. He says they will last a 1000 years they cost 10 x as much and who really wants a 1000 year home a 100 is just fine with most folks I know.
     
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  11. Jun 11, 2018 #11

    TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical

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    The Great Lizard ! Neighbor

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    Granted there is noting attractive about a steel stud. yes you can twist one in your bare hands. But here are a few benefits. Termites would not touch them. Come with holes precut for electrical or plumbing. Never warp with age. They don't have to be shimmed to have a straight wall. Fast installation. Carpenter bees don't like steel either. To me, initial price is the only draw back and since the THH compound is designed and intended to last for many generations, 1,000 years sound pretty darn good.
     
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  12. Jun 12, 2018 #12

    SheepDog

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    Concrete construction is too brittle. It will crack exposing the steel reinforcement in an earthquake and it will explode if it is rapidly heated due to the water and air sealed inside.
    Steel studs have no resilience and depend on the sheathing for load support in an earthquake or fire. At 350F steel studs will lose 50% of their strength.
    Wood studs are resilient and have great compressive strength and will bend and deform in an earthquake and return to their normal position after the quake. In a fire the wood studs are protected by the sheathing from the heat. Wood has to get to 451F before it burns and a 3/4" sheathing will prevent that for an hour. The thing is that as wood gets hot it is stronger until the cross section is reduced to 60% of its original size. That burning takes a long time. I used concrete board (Hardy board) over the sheathing on my shop and garage which adds another hour before the sheathing starts to burn. Now it takes 2 hours to get to the studs. On the inside I used sheathing with drywall over the sheathing to provide the same protection on the inside. Insect damage is a concern but there are spray on coatings that provide protection from them without subtracting from the fire resistance. (boric acid sprays work well for insects and add fire resistance to the wood)
    In my life earthquakes have been the main threat with fire next. I have seen foundations crack in an M6 to M7 quake but the wood structure is fine. Having the wood fastened to the foundation is to help strengthen the beam strength of the foundation and to keep the wood structure from moving off the foundation. I used tie-down bolts on 32" centers instead of the required 6 foot or recommended 4 foot centers to add to the overall strength. The added cost is minimal but the added strength is over 50%. I also used adhesive between the wall and foundation. I did that to keep insects and water out and to help tie the wall to the foundation.
    I like metal. I work with it a lot and know its strengths and weaknesses. I would never use metal studs in a home. I might consider using the metal floor joists as studs in an 8 inch wall but I would make sure that the sheathing was thick enough to prevent heat from getting to the wall interior and it would be fastened with twice the number of fasteners recommended. Steel is alright in an office building where it doesn't handle high loads and you need to go through the walls to escape but in a home it makes no sense at all.
     
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  13. Jun 12, 2018 #13

    rusty

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    Odd thing here. 8 ft 2x4s are cheaper than studs right now. Don't think I have ever seen that.
     
  14. Jun 12, 2018 #14

    TMT Tactical

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    This reply is not a challenge to your post but a quest for more knowledge. (1) Concrete is too brittle. The location for the THH project has no recorded earthquakes of any significance. So cracking is not a major worry. (2) Concrete will explode if rapidly heated. I agree on this point. Burning embers from a forest fire are the major issues. The risk of fire damage is mitigated by keeping major combustibles a minimum of 100 feet from the structure and the installation of a roof top sprinkler system. (3) Boric acid spray to protect against insects. I have no experience with this treatment or the effective life span of this product /procedure but I would be concerned is it not a 100 year product. Plus the additional cost of treating every piece of lumber, precut and after cutting. Once the wood in encapsulated in the walls, any missed spots is an open invitation to hungry insects. Desert insects play havoc on any construction grade lumber and there are no plans to call Terminex. :D I really like the idea of tie-downs on 32" centers, no earthquakes but the added 50% strength is a solid bet and price point effective. Steel I-Beam construction for roof / load bearing walls will be a must and doubling up of attachment screws should also be a given. The upfront cost of the main house structure cost is going to be high but the durability is the driving factor. Also solid concrete walls are difficult to shoot through, just one added feature along with temperature variance control. Design criteria --- (A) Extreme durability. (B) Minimal maintenance. (C) Defend-ability. (D) Reliability of systems. (E) System efficiency. (F) Family comfort. (G) Completely self sufficient -- off grid -- food production.

    Sheepdog, I certainly appreciate your input, it gives me food for though and an opportunity to challenge my concepts. Thank you for your valued reply, it helps a lot.
     
  15. Jun 12, 2018 #15

    Guardian

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    We salvaged a lot of the timber from our demo project. I’ve been pulling nails and trimming bad spots and have about a third of a five gallon bucket of bent nails. I’m glad we did because what I have bout recently has been crazy priced with lower quality. I’ve been able to get several projects done with only buying a few essentials as needed. I guess I was actually prepared for a change.
     
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  16. Jun 13, 2018 #16

    SheepDog

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    TMT Tactical,
    Your design criteria just screams "buried concrete construction". If you are not concerned about fire getting close enough to heat the steel to 350F then it should be strong enough to last a thousand years especially in a dry climate. There are some thermal challenges to a steel plate roof. It is going to get HOT if it is in direct sunlight. Mounding sand or dirt over it will prevent that to a large degree. Concrete is hard to shoot one bullet through but each bullet will cut a crater in the wall - even a 22 long rifle cuts a crater about a third of an inch deep. It won't take but a few hundred rounds to go through an eight inch wall and the heavier calibers with hard bullets are going to present hazardous conditions on the inside of the wall when fired from outside. Concrete sprays debris on the exit side that can injure and kill. A few feet of sand will stop just about any bullet. A steel reinforced concrete home put underground or covered over with dirt or sand is not only nearly bullet and fire proof but it is also protected from the temp extremes of the desert. The cost of the concrete is less than the cost of the steel I beams and plate roof and with a few feet of dirt over the top it is better at just about everything nature or man can throw at it. The most expensive part will be the excavation. If you do use concrete walls that are exposed you can cover them with a foot of "Ballistic Concrete" which is chopped straw and mortar. It will stop even 50 BMG bullets and it is good for around a million rounds before it has to be replaced. It is not good for a load bearing wall but it is very good as protection of a load bearing wall. An underground home can be very nice and comfortable for a family and natural light can be supplied with either mirrors or fiber optic cables. Using LED lighting will cut electrical costs as will Geo-thermal heat pump for heat and cooling. The cost is going to be high but the home will last for your 1000 year time frame.

    Just so you know:
    Boric acid is sprayed on the lumber before it is assembled and again after assembly. It lasts as long as it stays dry. They use it on hay bails for stage use as a fire block but if it gets wet it has to be reapplied.
    My dealings with pest control folks is not good. They tell you up front that they can't get rid of insects (horse manure) but they will come out once a month to "control" the pests. I got rid of a roach infestation in my second home in just 7 days with kitchen and garage chemicals. The roaches all died and never came back either. I have eradicated carpenter ants and sugar ants too using boric acid in conjunction with peanut butter or sugar or an application of diatomaceous earth.
    For my next home I am planning a subterranean home as a support for a house on top of it. That way I can entertain and have friends over and still have a safe place to go to prepare to stay or get out without having to fight all the way. That home is going to cost a lot!
     
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  17. Jun 13, 2018 #17

    Terri9630

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    Underground would be great. Out here in the desert its mostly scrub brush and keeping that cleared will protect you from fire. You may die of smoke inhalation but you won't burn. With our current place we have 2 1/2 acres that is cleared with gravel and 6 ft wall for a premiter fence. No grass and no trees within 60 foot of any building, garage, barn and all animal fencing are metal. We do have pines for a wind block, tallest is 40ft. Even if the trees fall they wouldn't be close to touching anything. I think our biggest fire worry is burning tumble weeds blowing against the house. Fire resistant roofing and siding is a must.
     
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  18. Jun 13, 2018 #18

    TMT Tactical

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    @SheepDog The THH house will be partially buried (full basement and the exterior walls were going to have partial berms but your suggestion about ballistic concrete, just opened a new research path and I found --BALLISTICRETE High Impact Plaster. This appears to have a ton of advantages and I will be looking into it more. On site application, applies to any modern building material and will stop a AK47 round. Looks very promising. I am going to post a link and would appreciate your reviewing / opinion of this product. This also appears to allow a full tilt (old fashion garage door) or sliding garage door to be bullet resistant. Here is the link: http://gigacrete.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/BALLISTICRETE-PRESENTATION-9.25.13.pdf

    @Terri9630 you are absolutely correct, keep the brush cleared. The fire department is not going to be riding to the rescue. I plan for a 100 foot clearance and a 10 foot high wall. Wall will be stucco and burning tumbleweeds will burn out before ignited the wall. Again steel studs, no wood for bugs, no rotting timber. Out of direct path of rain or condensation. I expect the wall to be standing straight and tall 100 years form now. Fire and marauders are my biggest concern, both are unpredictable.
     
  19. Jun 13, 2018 #19

    hashbrown

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    Hey Lizard check this one out! It's being built about 3 miles from our house the way the crow flies. It was supposed to be being built out of a new type of concrete that they were saying is bomb and earthquake proof. The concrete supplier cheapened up the mix and there is or was a massive lawsuit going on. Its the type of construction you are talking about.

    http://www.kansascity.com/living/home-garden/article51616315.html
     
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  20. Jun 13, 2018 #20

    hashbrown

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    This is while they were building it. They talk about the concrete construction.

     
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  21. Jun 13, 2018 #21

    TMT Tactical

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    @hashbrown Thanks for the post and links. I had watched the video. I think you or somebody had posted about the law suit on the corner cutting. I am not sure the special concrete would be ballistic resistant (blast and ballistic are different) and I won't need the extra strength for wind or loads. As sheepdog pointed out, standard concrete will spall and can be punctured by rifle fire. I don't plan for the THH project to be bullet proof, it would be nice if it was bullet resistant. A standing fire fight is not going to happen (we plan to rabbit first) but the house must provide enough time for family to reach the rabbit hole. Stucco, concrete block or standard siding will puncture with the first rounds fired. Poured concrete will survive several rounds but could cause injuries from the spalling. I had researched ceramic ball filled walls (bullet proof) but the cost was astronomical and supply unavailable. The possibility ballistic concrete does open a new avenue of possibilities. There is a school of thought about a wall filled with Marbles could resist gun fire, but nobody has fully tested it. I know a wall filled with sand would stop the bullets but has it's own set of problems.

    Yeah, I know I can sound a bit like a loose wheel (okay paranoid nut case) but since this is planned to be a generational homestead / compound, I have to try an plan for what America could be like 20, 30 or 50 years from now. I can't design against future technology but I can design against future recession and moral decline. If I have guessed wrong, then the future generations will still have a nice place to live out their lives in comfort. If I am right, they will have a safe harbor. When a California University (maybe a college) (article in Fox News, I think) teaches it is okay for children (not teens but children) to watch porn, then I tend to think I am on the right track.
     
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  22. Jun 13, 2018 #22

    hashbrown

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    I grew up with my immediate family owning concrete plants. Ive mixed 1000s of yards of concrete and I promise you I can mix some mud that will do the job. Not all concrete is equal.
     
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  23. Jun 13, 2018 #23

    Terri9630

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    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
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  24. Jun 13, 2018 #24

    TMT Tactical

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    Now that is some of the best news I have had. Now it will be a few years before actual construction starts but is there a slow time of the year for your company, and would you be able to travel to Arizona to build the THH?

    Can Jake come to help supervise? There should be a fair amount of shooting time after work hours.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
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  25. Jun 14, 2018 #25

    Caribou

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    Have you considered ICF, if I remember correctly, forms. Foam on both sides acts as a form and later insulation. The concrete will act as a ballistic barrier. They come for 4", 6", and my favorite, 8" concrete walls. Yes, you will eventually get through it but you must hit the exact same spot several times or have something really big. The spalling will eventually start but that should be caught by the interior foam and interior finish. An outside facade of cinder block or brick will create a fire barrier and added ballistic protection.
     
  26. Jun 14, 2018 #26

    TMT Tactical

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    Great minds think alike. I have considered the ICF and it is on my list of possibles. I need to figure out if it can be water proofed (think cistern) or find a way to go from regular concrete to the ICF for the above ground walls. I do like the 8 inch too and I also agree the foam should dramatically stop or at least slow down the spalling affect from heavy rifle fire. The other wonderful advantage of the ICF is the added insulation factor. Minimal heat or cooling loss. A great suggestion Caribou.
     
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  27. Jun 14, 2018 #27

    Meerkat

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    Tell us more. Who makes the best concrete?
     
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  28. Jun 14, 2018 #28

    Meerkat

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    M either, where is this?

    I wish I could find some good glass for GHouse addition but think windows may be the best deals.
     
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  29. Jun 14, 2018 #29

    Caribou

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    We put liners in our cisterns. The wood cisterns are a constant battle. Concrete can settle and crack or have air that didn't get vibrated out. Aluminum will eventually get pinholes in it and I don't want to drink out of an aluminum tank anyway. We use Hypalon liners and have them custom made. They last for many years. Another option is to build the cistern the same size as an above ground swimming pool and buy one of those liners.

    It is nice to clean out the cistern every five or ten years so having at least two is really nice so you don't have to be without water.
     
  30. Jun 14, 2018 #30

    SheepDog

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    What you found is different than ballistic concrete. The ballistic concrete is a free standing wall and is usually 8 feet high. It can be molded to look like standard concrete, concrete block wall or any kind of texture or appearance you want.
    HERE and HERE are two examples of what I am referring to. It is used at rifle ranges to capture bullets from all kinds of ammunition.
     

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