Make a Shelter Plan #4-How would you use the bathroom in your shelter?

[angie_nrs]

Find and read the book " Humanure".

Yet another book I have but haven't read. I can't imagine it's much more of an enjoyable read than the nuke book I have. I have read parts of the nuke book.....but I forgot what I read.

You are correct in considering all the variables with nuke fallout. If your shelter opens up to the outdoors then you do not want to break your seal, as you stated. If you have a basement shelter and your home is intact, then you can consider being able to place the waste outside of the door if needed.

Well, the "hole" I would crawl into would actually be my basement. However, I do have materials readily available to make it a decent, sealed hole. I was just wondering why I would bother to seal everything up (doorway upstairs and a couple small windows) only to break the seal, even it was to the upstairs to put waste out there? Due to the fact that the upstairs would still be under roof and not directly outside, would that be acceptable? Somehow I'm thinking no. Even if radiation wasn't falling out of the sky in the form of rain or flakes and wasn't landing outside your entry door, there would still be radiation. If you had mass (debris like sand bags, boards, cabinets, etc) above you serving as shielding it would seem counterproductive to evade that shielding to just quickly go upstairs to put a bucket of poo outside the door and then reseal the entryway and go back. Once exposed to radiation, you're exposed. With nuke fallout, I have a hard time believing that just a couple of seconds/minutes would be OK to run upstairs even if it was an enclosed area. I could be very wrong on my assumptions........if so, please educate me.

And kd4ulw, you are correct. How would I know if another bomb hit? That's another one of my dilemmas with the whole nuke scenario. How do you know when it's safe? I do have a dosimeter but am not certain how to use it, nor am I totally convinced of it's accuracy. I played with it a bit when I first got it but I guess I should get it back out and play again. I just hate playing with morbid toys.

It hard for me to shake the feeling of hopelessness if a nuke hit. I watched a documentary on Chernobyl not long ago and there is still a wicked hot zone by that plant. The dead wood that has been dead since the accident won't decay due to the radiation. So, all the leaves, trees, etc. that are there on the ground aren't going anywhere and are dry as a bone. When lightening strikes there one day, that whole mess is gonna go up in flames.......and cause some major problems downwind from that area and potentially across the globe. The destruction caused from just one nuke plant is enormous and that was without a big BOOM. I just can't fathom what a few big BOOMs will do. And, the next time it will likely be more than just 2 of them.

 

[ReadyMom]

^ ^ ^ What Angie Said ^ ^ ^ (You must be reading my mind on this!)

 

[kd4ulw]

Well, the "hole" I would crawl into would actually be my basement. However, I do have materials readily available to make it a decent, sealed hole. I was just wondering why I would bother to seal everything up (doorway upstairs and a couple small windows) only to break the seal, even it was to the upstairs to put waste out there? Due to the fact that the upstairs would still be under roof and not directly outside, would that be acceptable? Somehow I'm thinking no. Even if radiation wasn't falling out of the sky in the form of rain or flakes and wasn't landing outside your entry door, there would still be radiation. If you had mass (debris like sand bags, boards, cabinets, etc) above you serving as shielding it would seem counterproductive to evade that shielding to just quickly go upstairs to put a bucket of poo outside the door and then reseal the entryway and go back. Once exposed to radiation, you're exposed. With nuke fallout, I have a hard time believing that just a couple of seconds/minutes would be OK to run upstairs even if it was an enclosed area. I could be very wrong on my assumptions........if so, please educate me.

Yes, you and I aren’t talking about the same thing when it comes to placing the poo bucket out of the door. I’m saying you could place it immediately outside the shelter door in the basement, if you don’t want the bucket right there with you. I’m not saying to go place outside the house! You are correct, way too much radiation out there. But if you didn’t want to have a poop bucket sitting next to you you could keep it inside the basement just outside of your immediate shelter. If you look up the old basement Civil Defense shelters that you can find online, you will see that they put ventilation holes at the bottom and top of their brick walls so you can receive air in your basement shelter through convection flow. Make sure you’re not sealing yourself up and using up all your oxygen. Plus with your breathing it’s going to get kind of humid in there and that’ll make it feel uncomfortable.

I totally get that this is not a ‘feel good’ subject. When the movie “The Day After” came out in the early ‘80’s it was so depressing that ABC aired a disclaimer at the beginning and held a panel discussion immediately following the movie. You can find this on YouTube.

Feel free to message me if you have questions about the dosimeter.

 

[Caribou]

Chernobyl is different. If the bomb is a spilled glass of water Chernobyl is a leaky faucet. The spilled glass will eventually dry up but the constant drip continues to dampen everything around it.

Many survived the bombs in Japan. Today Hiroshima and Nagasaki are thriving cities. Do not despair, it is not necessarily a death sentence and if you are one of the ones that do die worrying will not help and may make it more likely.

All the radioactive isotopes have a half life. Iodine 131's half life is about 8 days. The half life of uranium is about 4.5 billion years. You can't wait out uranium but iodine and others you can. I am in no way suggesting that you open the door willy nilly. Nor am I suggesting that you open the door soon. The longer you wait the better. If you have adequate buckets with good lids then perhaps you can store your waste inside.

Your iodine tablets you only take for the first couple of weeks. After that the iodine has probably degraded to a point where it is little threat. After three or four weeks you will probably venture outside. After a couple of weeks you might have a need that would warrant some risk. There will be risk so your first forays should be kept to a minimum. A few seconds or a few minutes at most. Masks, coveralls, and booties should be worn if you have them.

 

[SheepDog]

In order to quote a "half life" of radioactive elements you have to separate the actual isotopes.
For example, Plutonium is very dangerous because it is very radioactive but it depends on which plutonium isotope you are talking about. The longest-lived is plutonium 244, which takes 80.8 million years to decay to half its level of radioactivity. The most commonly-used isotopes -- and those found at Fukushima -- are plutonium 238, with a half life of 88 years; plutonium 239, with a half life of 24,000 years; and plutonium 240, with a half life of 6,500 years.
Uranium is less radioactive and so has a longer half life but its half life depends on the isotope you discuss. Uranium-238, the most prevalent isotope of uranium, has a half-life of 4.46 billion years. This means that in 4.46 billion years, only half of the uranium would have decayed. Uranium-235 and Uranium-234 have half-lives of 704 million and 245,000 years, respectively. The shorter the half life typically means that it produces more radiation and is more dangerous.

 

[Weedygarden]

There is something about radiation needing a straight or direct line to have a strong effect. The shelter door needs to have a turn or two to protect someone from a stronger dose of radiation. This video shows how Southern Prepper 1 built an underground bunker where he keeps lots of food storage. I think he shows the turn in the entrance in this video.

 

[kd4ulw]

There is something about radiation needing a straight or direct line to have a strong effect. The shelter door needs to have a turn or two to protect someone from a stronger dose of radiation.

Yes, think of the radiation like the beam of a flashlight. If you just had a straight entrance there wouldn’t be anything to help stop the radiation just as you could shine the flashlight beam straight into the shelter.

 

[kd4ulw]

Here is a 1950’s design that shows that 90° shielded turn at the entrance.

 

[SheepDog]

The "rule of thumb" for radiation protection is that you cut your dosage in half for every 2 feet of earth or concrete between you and the source.
2 feet will allow 50% of the radiation to penetrate, 4 feet will allow 25%, six feet allows 12.5% and so on. Alpha particles can be completely stopped by a sheet of paper or tin foil, Beta particles will penetrate about 6 inches of earth or concrete, X-rays will penetrate 4 feet and Gamma particles will penetrate more than 6 feet of lead or 12 feet of earth or concrete.

 

[angie_nrs]

View attachment 2950 Here is a 1950’s design that shows that 90° shielded turn at the entrance.

This is on my wish list, albeit a bit small. Realistically, I know it will never happen for me. All I have is a walkout basement that I'll have to make the best of. Thankfully the walkout part is tucked in pretty well and is surrounded with some concrete to keep erosion at bay. Reinforcing the walkout area from inside shouldn't be too terribly difficult with plywood and plastic, but it won't contain a lot of mass, which I know is critical. Thankfully the opening to the basement is downwind and tucked under the mass of the house. The area I would hole up in would be toward the earth part of the basement and the furthest away from the walkout area. I'm thinking I would still seal off the upstairs door that leads to the main floor as well as seal up the walkout area as well. I'm not sure if sealing off the upstairs door is totally necessary? I was also wondering if it would make sense (time permitting) to park heavy equipment outside the walkout entryway to provide some mass? Because it wouldn't be a wall per se, would it do any good? I'm thinking it wouldn't hurt.

I'm not concerned at all about running out of air. It's a basement so it's not air tight. I guess that is both good and bad. But, it is what I have. I wish I had more mass between me and the ceiling of the basement. Basically we have the roof, the first floor( and the items contained on that floor), and that's about it. We have good mass on the outer wall since it's all earth, but it's the above area over our heads that concerns me. I just don't think there's much I can do about that. Why do I feel like I'm overthinking this? Is it because I haven't given it enough thought before now?

 

[SheepDog]

Back in the 50's my dad built one of those shelters in the basement. He couldn't stand up in it because the top had concrete blocks to the studs and sand bags packed between them.
When more kids came along (a total of 12 of us) it was turned into a pantry. The walls were 16 inches thick and the ceiling was 32 inches with sand over that. The one I built in Seattle was a bit bigger and had a real bathroom and shower. When I sold the house I turned it into a bedroom to get the most money out of it.

 

[Caribou]

This is on my wish list, albeit a bit small. Realistically, I know it will never happen for me. All I have is a walkout basement that I'll have to make the best of. Thankfully the walkout part is tucked in pretty well and is surrounded with some concrete to keep erosion at bay. Reinforcing the walkout area from inside shouldn't be too terribly difficult with plywood and plastic, but it won't contain a lot of mass, which I know is critical. Thankfully the opening to the basement is downwind and tucked under the mass of the house. The area I would hole up in would be toward the earth part of the basement and the furthest away from the walkout area. I'm thinking I would still seal off the upstairs door that leads to the main floor as well as seal up the walkout area as well. I'm not sure if sealing off the upstairs door is totally necessary? I was also wondering if it would make sense (time permitting) to park heavy equipment outside the walkout entryway to provide some mass? Because it wouldn't be a wall per se, would it do any good? I'm thinking it wouldn't hurt.

I'm not concerned at all about running out of air. It's a basement so it's not air tight. I guess that is both good and bad. But, it is what I have. I wish I had more mass between me and the ceiling of the basement. Basically we have the roof, the first floor( and the items contained on that floor), and that's about it. We have good mass on the outer wall since it's all earth, but it's the above area over our heads that concerns me. I just don't think there's much I can do about that. Why do I feel like I'm overthinking this? Is it because I haven't given it enough thought before now?

Yes, putting heavy equipment near the building would potentially reduce your exposure. I would park it as close as possible to the building. A tarp from the building and covering the equipment would reduce the amount of fallout that wound up on the equipment and on the ground between the equipment and you.

Viewing your walkout basement as a six sided box you have 4 sides very well protected. Your heavy equipment is a reasonable accommodation for a fifth side.

There are two things that will protect you from radiation, distance and mass. The shorter the distance the greater the mass needs to be. Being in the basement with one story above you is not as good as having two stories above you but it beats being on the upper floor of a building.

If you feel the threat is significant enough you might consider putting in a concrete ceiling in the back portion of the basement. Rip out the ceiling then pour a 4" to 6" reinforced concrete ceiling at the 7'6" or 7' level. After this cures sand can be added if additional protection is desired.

 

[angie_nrs]

If you feel the threat is significant enough you might consider putting in a concrete ceiling in the back portion of the basement. Rip out the ceiling then pour a 4" to 6" reinforced concrete ceiling at the 7'6" or 7' level. After this cures sand can be added if additional protection is desired.

Thanks for the info Caribou! Actually I'm thinking the threat is less now than just a few months ago. Still...... I am not in an area that is close to a major target....perhaps a secondary target, but unlikely. If the blast did hit the target I am thinking of, that wave would hit on one of the earthed sides of the basement, but we would have very little time to do anything like move equipment. Thankfully I really am not too concerned about that being a major target. We have more of a 4 sided basement, so there's really only 1 side that isn't buried.

I would love to reinforce the basement ceiling but it just ain't gonna happen. Heck, I really need a new kitchen and new carpeting throughout....so if we're gonna rip out anything, it's gonna be the kitchen and carpet. My expectations are low even with that. I hate home improvement projects, especially interior ones b/c they are so disruptive to everyday life. That's why I will encourage my kids to build or purchase their homes right the first time. It's much easier than trying to change things later.

 

[Caribou]

Thanks for the info Caribou! Actually I'm thinking the threat is less now than just a few months ago. Still...... I am not in an area that is close to a major target....perhaps a secondary target, but unlikely. If the blast did hit the target I am thinking of, that wave would hit on one of the earthed sides of the basement, but we would have very little time to do anything like move equipment. Thankfully I really am not too concerned about that being a major target. We have more of a 4 sided basement, so there's really only 1 side that isn't buried.

I would love to reinforce the basement ceiling but it just ain't gonna happen. Heck, I really need a new kitchen and new carpeting throughout....so if we're gonna rip out anything, it's gonna be the kitchen and carpet. My expectations are low even with that. I hate home improvement projects, especially interior ones b/c they are so disruptive to everyday life. That's why I will encourage my kids to build or purchase their homes right the first time. It's much easier than trying to change things later.

You have a far better situation than I. Like you my assessment of this threat is very low. I do find it entertaining to contemplate ways to harden my home against fallout. One possible answer is to surround my gun safe with ammo cans full of ammo and components. I could then put the inflatable bed in the crawl space under the protected area. Okay, probably not going to happen.

 

[William Egan]

So, this is currently being discussed on another forum I frequent. Zip lock bags, tubs, kitty litter are all being thrown into the mix.

Another concern is odor.

What about pets?

Ready Mom Good for you for looking out for your family and being prepared. In my opinion a composting toilet would be the thing and it is very economical and sanitary if done right. It can be as simple as a 5 gallon bucket or an expensive manufactured one. The simple rule to keeping odor down is to keep # 1 away from #2 with some kind of urine separator or if your disciplined enough use two buckets. You then have to cover the poo with sawdust, cat litter, peat moss, compost or anything similar to help absorb the moister and that does a great job at keeping the smell down. If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask.
Here is a video of one that I made and it works great

Also you can buy the snap on toilet sets at Walmart that fit on a 5 gallon bucket. I hope this helps and feel free to check out my other videos I plan to make some videos on survival and off grid living. If you like my channel please consider subscribing also, it would be a great help to me. thanks

 

[Weedygarden]

Mentioned earlier, the "Humanure" book is available as a free pdf. 308 pages!

https://humanurehandbook.com/downloads/H2.pdf

 

[Spikedriver]

When my daughter was a baby we had a little container that held dirty diapers. It had a long narrow plastic bag similar to a trash bag but skinnier. You put the dirty diapers in, pushed the top to work the mechanism inside, and it twisted the bag to make a (mostly) air tight seal. When the container got full we had a long skinny twisted up bag full of bulges that each held a diaper. It kind of looked like a snake that had eaten a bunch of rabbits. I imagine one of these could be re-purposed to hold adult waste in baggies. It would help to keep down the smell and disposal would be simplified...

 

[angie_nrs]

When my daughter was a baby we had a little container that held dirty diapers. It had a long narrow plastic bag similar to a trash bag but skinnier. You put the dirty diapers in, pushed the top to work the mechanism inside, and it twisted the bag to make a (mostly) air tight seal. When the container got full we had a long skinny twisted up bag full of bulges that each held a diaper. It kind of looked like a snake that had eaten a bunch of rabbits. I imagine one of these could be re-purposed to hold adult waste in baggies. It would help to keep down the smell and disposal would be simplified...

Yup, that is a diaper genie. I have one of those in storage too, along with 5 packages of the plastic rolls that feed it.

 

[jimLE]

great idea spikedriver.but how would you fill it? maybe use it as a toilet? maybe set it up with a bed toilet somehow.

 

[Spikedriver]

great idea spikedriver.but how would you fill it? maybe use it as a toilet? maybe set it up with a bed toilet somehow.

I suppose you'd have to figure out a way to use a baggie or something similar and do your business into the baggie. No idea how a person would make that happen, but necessity is the mother of invention...

 

[Spikedriver]

Yup, that is a diaper genie. I have one of those in storage too, along with 5 packages of the plastic rolls that feed it.

I haven't seen a diaper genie in years, but as I recall it isn't very large. Capacity could be an issue - after all it's made for baby sized, ummm..."amounts"...but creative people might be able to figure out a way around that.

 

[Caribou]

I don't know a diaper genie from a left handed monkey wrench but perhaps this will help.

Dipper most of the water out of your toilet bowl.
Lift the seat and line the bowl with a plastic bag.
Place a second bag inside the bowl and put the seat down.
This is for your solids. Liquids are kept separate.
Keeping the lid down will help on the smell. Sawdust, ash, or Lysol also helps.
When time or quantity require remove the one bag and replace it.
The full bag can be put in a bucket, tied and placed outside, or possibly put in your diaper genie.

 

[Weedygarden]

I have seen cabinet shops giving saw dust away. Free investment in this prep, except for decent containers.

 

[Spikedriver]

I don't know a diaper genie from a left handed monkey wrench but perhaps this will help.

Dipper most of the water out of your toilet bowl.
Lift the seat and line the bowl with a plastic bag.
Place a second bag inside the bowl and put the seat down.
This is for your solids. Liquids are kept separate.
Keeping the lid down will help on the smell. Sawdust, ash, or Lysol also helps.
When time or quantity require remove the one bag and replace it.
The full bag can be put in a bucket, tied and placed outside, or possibly put in your diaper genie.

Good idea. Need the super heavy duty bags for sure, but probably about as good as it gets. A layer of plastic could be put across the top, under the seat to further seal the smell in...

It occurs to me that none of our ideas would be pleasant, but if we ever had to use them, life would already be quite unpleasant...literally a sh---y situation...

 

[SheepDog]

Heavy duty yard bags, peat moss and a bit of water in a 5 gallon pail will act as a composting toilet. Sawdust will work but peat moss is faster.