Need advice/help with cistern level controls/float/switch

[zannej]

I have a well shed with an antiquated system. I'll try to describe the setup as best as I can and as best as I understand it.

First I have a PVC pipe coming out of the ground that is connected to metal pipes that attach to a pump with 2 pulley wheels with a belt. The end with the motor turns and makes the other wheel spin and it uses pneumatic pressure through the metal pipe. I've heard some people call it an air compressor pump. Somehow this makes water come up from underground and up through a PVC pipe that goes up and then elbows over to come down on top of and through the lid of the cistern/holding tank. On top of the cistern's lid there used to be a pipe mounted D-switch with a lever. The end of the lever had a hole for a rod with a float on the end. The wires for the belt driven pump connect directly to the switch and the other end of the switch hooks to power. When the float is down the switch is down & closes the connection so the pump kicks on and fills the cistern.

Near the bottom of the side of the cistern there is an outlet pipe that connects to a jet pump that connects to a pressure tank, and then goes out to the barn, yard, and house. But that part is not important right now.

Years ago the D-switch burned out from a power surge & the well installer guy (Mr. Show) came out to swap out the switch. But the only D-switch available was a surface mount one that uses 4 screws. The lid is fiberglass so he couldn't mount directly to it. He found a scrap of wood lying around and caulked it to the top of the cistern lid and screwed the D-switch to it. It was ever so slightly off at an angle though so the rod for the float wouldn't stay straight up and down. This didn't seem like a problem at first. The old rod had to be greased with vaseline because it would get stuck and not slide up and push the lever up-- lever also got rusty on the old one. Anyway, since the rod goes at a slight angle, sometimes when the float moves up, the rod tips sideways instead of going straight up and doesn't push the lever up. My friend came out and adjusted the angle of the switch so it wasn't doing that anymore. Unfortunately, I don't know if it was heat or what, but the block seems to have shifted over more and the float lever is angled again. I tried pushing the block back but it would not budge (although, I could not step in to the well shed at the time because it was flooded).

Last night the rod tipped sideways and jammed, holding the lever down. Cistern overflowed and water levels almost reached the bottom of the pumps. Barely missed reaching electrical. I was able to pull up on the rod and straighten it. But now I know I will have to keep checking on it as I don't think I can get the switch to turn the correct way. I had discussed this on plumbing forums and been told to get a solenoid valve but I could never quite understand how that would work. So, I'm looking for better solutions for detecting water levels in the cistern. (Looking back at the thread on the plumbing forum I has missed that the pro had told me solenoid wouldn't work but I would need a relay & float-- but I don't know if a relay can pull enough amps/power- might need a contactor instead). He did mention something about a 24 volt coil & a transformer to convert to 24volts.

I need something that is durable, safe for potable water, and can be put directly in the water. I have seen cable floats that zip tie to a pipe that goes down inside a cistern. I could probably drill a hole big enough to put the wires through into the pipe to run wires inside the pipe and out of the cistern lid (putting the pipe through the hole in the lid that is used for the rod). But I'm not sure how to connect them to the pump. I know I can't put the wires directly together as they will be different awg. I think we have 10awg wires going to the pump because the smaller gauge wires kept frying. I'm hoping to keep the system as simple/easy to set up as possible.

The pump has 1hp V 115/208-230 (voltage?). This is the old motor but the one we purchased has completely identical specs. (Turns out the motor was still good but the wires were bad & friend had forgotten to check first). Is the A part for Amps? If so, it pulls 12.2 or 6 to 6.1 amps?

Old D-switch (new one is the same except for mounting brackets)

Current style of D-switch

Pump (we've since replaced the motor part with one that had identical specs)

Pipe from pump going in to top of cistern lid

We never got the water softener installed and those bags of pellets got chewed on by the cows.

Example setup a pro posted of the cable float

I saw that they have some floats that work with AC power up to 270v, but the ones I've seen are rated for 1/2" HP. I'm trying to find something for 1HP and up to 12.2A.

This float says it can do 13A, up to 250V, and 1/2HP. The specs are good except for the 1/2HP.

This one doesn't specify the load but it is NC (normally closed) and will shut the pump off when the circuit opens (when the float goes up). Not exactly sure how I would connect it to the pump. Contactor? Relay? I know Contactors can handle more amps/voltage.

There's this with sensors instead of floats but I'm not sure how they would work if they can't be put in water. Perhaps they could be on the inside of a pipe put down in to the cistern? Taidacent Automatic Water Level Controller Automatic Water Pump Controller Either to Fill or Empty a Tank with Two Non Contact Liquid Level Sensors Water Tank Automatic Filling System: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

This one is even fancier and more complicated but I like the general idea. Hi-Lo Sump Pump Switch, Ortis Electronic Adjustable Float Switch Controller with Dual Sensors, Perfect for Sewage pits, Fish Tank, Water Tank, 220/110 VAC - - Amazon.com

Kinda pricey on that one and still not sure if it could handle the amps or how it would hook to the pump.

Anyone familiar with these systems? I really want to set it up so that I don't have to worry about floats getting stuck and leaving the pump on.

 

[kd4ulw]

The second level controller works by placing the probes into the water (direct contact). The first one attaches to the outside of the tank. There is a greater chance that the external probes would fail to sense through the tank walls or come loose and not pick up the water level. I would go with the second controller.

The specs show it would handle the voltage and current of your pump. If you are worried about overfilling the tank you could put another level switch at the top that when the tank gets too full it would open the circuit and stop the pump, would be a top limit safety shut off.

 

[zannej]

Thanks kd4ulw. Now if I can figure out how to hook that thing up and how to attach the pump... Would the pump need a plug or something to go in to the outlet on the orange box? I'm guessing the plug end of the box is supposed to be plugged in to power. I'd likely have to cut off the plug end OR try to find a high enough outlet box. I think I read somewhere that you need something rated 20% over the total load. A 20amp might be safest to go with, but I'm not sure if they sell boxes with the right voltage. Need a weather-proof gang box though.

You think I could fit the wires for the sensors inside a pipe that goes in to the hole? I'm trying to figure out the best way to secure a pipe. Need to figure out the diameter of that hole though. Might need to use some other sort of stabilized rod. And I suppose I can also check to see if that PVC pipe that the old switch used to sit on actually goes in to the tank or if it just sits on top. I'd love to cover that hole up so stuff can't fall in it.

I'm not sure where I would mount the box. I'll have to figure that out. Cables look long enough I might be able to hang it from the ceiling beam but not sure if the wires for the pump will reach the outlet. Of course, I will have to add a plug (need to figure out what kind) because that would be nicer than hard-wiring.

Editing to add, the $69 one says it's up to 220V but my pump goes up to 230. Not sure if it draws that much though...

Editing again: Could I cut the plug off of the orange box to hardwire the box in to a junction box for power and attach the plug to the wires from the pump to plug it in to the orange box?

 

[kd4ulw]

You would really need someone local to look at it to make sure what was going on but you were right, the pump was plugged into that box and the box plugs into the wall. The sensor wires should attach to the PVC pipe that goes down into the tank on the outside of the pipe.

 

[zannej]

Thanks. That's what I was looking at. I don't believe I have a PVC pipe that goes in to the tank and therein lies one of the problems. I can't lift the lid because the pipe that fills it is in the way. Not sure how the repair guy got the lid off to climb inside to replace something before-- the outlet for the jet pump broke off inside before.

 

[zannej]

I found some more info that was helpful. So the seller of one of the floats.

In an answer about whether or not the float could handle 240v the seller said:
To be clear, there are two types of 220 V service:
1. The pump received 220 V on a “hot leg“ and has a neutral.
2. The pump has “too hot legs“ which are in all actuality -110 V, and positive 110 V, and a ground.
In scenario number one, the float switch can activate and deactivate the pump directly and should be placed in line on the hot leg.
And scenario number two, a contactor or relay should be used to start and stop the pump, and the float switch should be used to turn the relay on or off.

That particular float comes with an adjustable weight so it doesn't need to be put on a rod/pipe. But, the weight it comes with is not rated for potable water. The seller linked the appropriate potable water safe weight and it's $20 but that is not too high compared to other prices I saw.

Since my friend thinks I have two hots and a ground I think the contactor would be the way to go. I also found a website that has information on house wiring including a diagram and info on how to wire a pump for a cistern.

The site had the following information:
Float switch connection

The float switch consists of three wires. To check the float switch we will set the Multimeter on continuity it contains red, blue and black wires in which black is neutral wire. We will connect the multimeter one probe with the black wire and the other with the blue wire when the float switch will be at bottom it will act as closed circuit and give signal to the motor to turn on. It give beep on multimeter which show that it act as closed circuit. Now connect the one probe of the multimeter with the black and other with the red wire when the float switch will move upward it act like a closed circuit.

Float Switch Working :
We will connect miniature circuit breaker (mcb) which automatically switches off electrical circuit during an abnormal condition of the network means in overload condition as well as a faulty condition with live and neutral wire at input. Connect the output of the mcb with the contactor input. Magnetic Contactor is for lossy magnetic flow generated with current in winding of such devices as transformer, throttles, magnetic cartridges filters and circuit. Output of contactor is connected with the motor. Connect the wire of the float switch with the neutral wire. Connect the L1 of the contactor with the A1. Connect the blue wire of the float switch with the A2 of the contactor.

I don't know what a "lossy" magnetic flow is, but I'm pretty sure the writer's first language is not English. I'll have to find my multimeter.

There was a video explaining how to wire the pump via a controller and MCB on Youtube from which I got this diagram

Aliexpress website actually had a helpful diagram as well

I believe the brown wire in that one is the equivalent of the red wire on the other float, but am not certain.

I found this water pump wire splice kit which I could use instead of wire nuts for some of the connections. I will have to see if I have a heat gun or something for the shrink wrap. I wonder if a hair dryer would work. LOL. I don't actually plan to submerge the wires so worst case I could put the plastic sleeves over the metal and then use electrical tape to seal it up. Another option for the splice kit is this. (For some reason if I put the urls directly it messes up and doesn't always show them).

Even though it's an extra step, the MCB might keep stuff from frying (I hope) so it might be worth it. I just need to figure out what type to get. I found this MCB that goes to 20A and 400V. The price is the same for lower amp ones. Comes with a mounting rail. A recommended link was a waterproof box that it can mount in.

I found a contactor that *might* be a contender but it has no reviews and no answered questions so I'm not sure. Says it is 230VAC but also cays 24V (I think DC). It can mount on a rail. I'm trying to see if there is an equivalent to it that can rail mount that has reviews and more details. It would be nice to have something that can mount inside the box with the MCB. I'm still searching.

Any ideas?

Do I need one that is normally open or normally closed?

 

[kd4ulw]

Normally open. When the switch is activated it closes the relay and completes the circuit.

 

[zannej]

Thanks! A well expert told me to skip the MCB so that will save some $. So now to choose the right contactor that can handle all the wires. Would a 2-pole one work? There are several options. I would like to get one that is rail mount so it can be secured inside a weatherproof box.

Someone clarified for me that the lower the voltage the higher the amp draw and vice versa. So if my pump is at 115 it draws about 12.2A. They said at 230V it will draw 6.0-6.1A. The floats that are rated for 13A and 1/2HP at like 250v can do 1HP for 230v. I wish I knew how to see what the pump was drawing though.

From what I can tell the cable for the pump comes from a tangle of wires hanging from the ceiling. It connects directly to the D-switch and then from the switch to the pump.

And I just got brainfreeze. LOL.

 

[zannej]

Float lever got jammed again last night. I was stuck pretty tight. I had to use some force to move it up. Switch sparked when I did it. Cistern had overflowed again.

I really need to get this fixed asap.

What I have determined thus far is that I want to get a weighted float switch that can handle 13A and 230VAC. I found one. A weight suitable for potable water (which has to be bought separately because the included weight is not for potable water). I'll need a NO (normally open) contactor that can handle at least 230VAC (think I found one that is rail mount), weatherproof box for the switch and either see if I can fit the stuff inside that box or have it in a separate weatherproof junction box (which I already have) and I can use these piggyback connectors to connect the wires. Since I will be connecting to the contactor, one end doesn't need to go very far.

If I use a separate junction box it would look something like this:

The red wire would actually be white, but its easier to draw in red.

I'm thinking about getting this box that can let me run wires out through both sides or through the bottom. I'm also leaning toward this contactor but it doesn't have any reviews so I'm not certain. There is one that is $30 and I'm debating if its worth it.

I'm going to have to figure out the best way to route the ground wire for the air compressor pump. I'm thinking I will keep it with the bundle of wires going to the float until I need to split it off and leave it long to run to the pump since the float doesn't connect to ground.

Any thoughts?

 

[Tirediron]

Is you compressor motor 115 volt or 230, the amperage is based on watts, for the same watt load 115 pulls twice the amperage as 230. If the float valve is operating a relay then the load on the float contacts is a bunch lower and the float valve should live many times longer

 

[Tirediron]

The float will only interrupt one wire in the circuit, so there is no point in running the bundle. unless it is a 2 wire 220 float switch, but it still only needs its own wires.

 

[zannej]

It's 230VAC. So it pulls lower amperage. Ugh. My L key is giving me troube working. Cat puked on my keyboard so I have to mash it hard to make it work.

 

[zannej]

I got my keyboard cleaned-- fortunately, it is spill proof. I had to take the keys off and clean the crud out.

I think I've narrowed it down to the float and the contactor. Just need to figure out how to wire them properly. I also am thinking of adding some secondary sensor so the jet pump won't try to run when the cistern is low.

Yesterday the belt broke on the air compressor pump and the jet pump was humming while trying to pump nothing.

I think my well service guy may have gone out of business or died. No signs of him on social media (official business site) since 2018. I wish I could replace the air compressor thing with something more efficient. Right now the motor shakes hard.

But, first I want to take care of the float situation. Any suggestions on how to rig it so at an even lower water level it will shut off the jet pump?

 

[Tirediron]

You should be able to replace the compressor with any common air compressor, If you want a low water cut out for your Jet pump, you can wire in a pump down float switch , the opposite function of the pump up float switch for the air compressor. you could also put a light in the jet pump circuit to indicate low water.

 

[zannej]

Tirediron, thanks for the feedback. I'm really not sure how I would change out the compressor pump or how to set up a low water indicator. I still haven't heard back from the well service guy.

I suppose it seems that the air compressor pump is blowing air rather than sucking air. I wish I could confirm somehow.. I suppose best way would be to disconnect it from the pipes and see.

 

[Tirediron]

pretty sure the compressor has to be blowing air, vacuum is really hard to generate above 27 psi gage, and that wont lift much water column. The low water indicator is fairly easy to set up, float switches are either pump up , meaning that they open the circuit as the fluid level rises. pump down float switches will open the circuit as the fluid level drops (as in a sump pump application) .

 

[zannej]

The well service guy finally called and said he's coming back tomorrow. I'll have to talk to him about it and see if he knows how to set something like that up.

 

[Tirediron]

Sort of curious what solution your well guy came up with

 

[zannej]

Tirediron, he had no solution. He wanted to leave things as they were because that's the only type of system he's ever worked with. Not many people are learning how to do this in the area & he was grandfathered in so he doesn't know about new ways to do things. He looked at things, tightened a screw, said the motor is supposed to shake, and then left. He refused to take any $ since he said it wasn't worth charging over 3 turns of a screw. Nevermind he used gas to get out there. He seemed somewhat surprised we'd changed the belt by ourselves, but he was happy that we did.
Still waiting on my friend to assess the electrical a little better before we get a new float system.

 

[Tirediron]

as long as you have water, kind of surprized that he wouldn't know about float switches configured like i suggested.

 

[zannej]

I was somewhat surprised he didn't know, but then it's not a trade people are learning anymore (at least not in this area) and his father taught him what he knows. There is no push for people to learn about new tech in that field apparenly.

 

[zannej]

So, stuff has gone up in price and I never got some stuff figured out with the electrical and I'm thinking at least a temporary solution would be to gerry rig an extension on to the existing lever to make it as long as the original one and then mount it to the spot the original one was on. Because the damn thing has jammed every single f***ing day this week. The block seems to have shifted more so the rod keeps turning sideways.

I figure if I can find the original one and see the length, I can duplicate that with either multiple cutoffs from older switches and/or some aluminum stock. It doesn't exert a ton of pressure when it gets pulled down or pushed up, so I'm thinkin some jb weld, maybe some short bolts, possibly some little clamps (if I can find what I'm imagining) and some T-Rex tape for good measure might help me slap something together. I have a brand new switch in a box that I can use if push comes to shove. Will have to see if it can be mounted to a pipe the way the old one was. I figure if I use flat aluminum stock as a bridge I can add a cut-off tongue to the end and it will already have the hole for the rod. Slap some vaseline on the rod to make it slide smoothly and hopefully it would work.

Does this sound feasible?

 

[Tirediron]

I think the simplest solution would be to replace the system with one of these https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2723/8896/products/c43w1ydakrxckmckktzn_1500x.jpg?v=1594045855
they are simple, and so easy to replace, if they wear out, and basicly nothing can go wrong

 

[Neb]

I think the simplest solution would be to replace the system with one of these https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2723/8896/products/c43w1ydakrxckmckktzn_1500x.jpg?v=1594045855
they are simple, and so easy to replace, if they wear out, and basicly nothing can go wrong

That is ...

What we used for our sump pump.

Otherwise just try something and learn from the mistakes.

Ben

 

[Tirediron]

That is ...

View attachment 81087

What we used for our sump pump.

Otherwise just try something and learn from the mistakes.

Ben

nope, you use a pump down switch for your sump pump looks the same, one opens the circuit at the top, the other opens the circuit at the bottom, and vise versa

 

[Neb]

nope, you use a pump down switch for your sump pump looks the same, one opens the circuit at the top, the other opens the circuit at the bottom, and vise versa

There you go!

Ben

 

[zannej]

That is essentially what I was looking at before. I have no working plugs in my shed. If I do add anything I need to figure out how to power it as it's on high voltage. I believe I need a contactor for those switches. I was looking at various ones that are hardwired and you can reverse wiring to make the pump turn OFF when water is high.

I think I will try my temporary solution until we can get the electrical sorted in the shed. I see Amazon selling just the lever part which means the old levers can be detached. I can bend the [_ shape flat or cut it off. I still have some jb weld. Need to see where my clamps are. I'll have go see what pieces I still have in the shed.

 

[zannej]

When I was unjamming the rod today I started thinking "I wish I had something from up top to keep the top of the rod straight".
So, I'm wondering if there is a way for me to get a pvc pipe to hang down-- maybe put up a wooden brace that hangs over and has a hole big enough for pvc pipe-- and then have the pipe go through that wood so the top of the rod stays in it even at its lowest point. I would want the pvc to be movable in case we need to mess with stuff, but just something to stabilize and guide the top so it doesn't tip might help. Wouldn't have to take apart anything to do it either. I'm seriously thinking of just temporarily gluing a pipe to the ceiling. LOL. It would have to be big enough for the nuts to slide into easily without bumping though. Or high enough that the nuts will never hit. Only needs the very tip to reach inside when it is lower. (yeah, just the tip- that's what she said).

 

[zannej]

As an update, we mounted the wooden block to an old pressure switch mount and put it on the pipe where it used to be. This allowed the switch to sit closer to the hole without extending the rod. But, the lower nut on the rod keeps getting stuck under the wooden block so I will have to trim the block, drill a channel to make sure it won't catch and maybe put a sheet of plastic or something from the top of the lid to the block to block the nut from sliding under the block. Or a piece of wood attacked underneath that is flush with the edge. I'll figure something out.

As you can see, the bottom of the block juts out more than the top.

 

[zannej]

So, the block started snagging the lower nut. I turned the power off to see if I could somehow notch it or do something to stop it. Couldn't get some of my tools working bc I lack the hand strength to press the buttons on the saw I tried to use. Got my friend out and he notched the block. BUT, by that point the pump wasn't kicking back on when power was on. Not sure if the motor burned up (although no smell to indicate that) or if the wires went bad or if it is the float switch.

Float switch almost doubled in price since last I looked at it. I thought I had a spare but I have a pressure switch instead. Popped in to TSC and they no longer carry them. ugh. Lowes has them for over $74. Amazon has them for around $72 (before tax). Lowes does not have them in stock though.

Then I took another look at this one: Taidacent Automatic Water Level Controller Water Pump Controller Water Tank Automatic Filling System Either to Fill or Empty a Tank Two Non Contact Water Tank Water Level Sensors 1 Meter Cable

If I do 2 sensors I can use this wiring diagram:

If the sensors should work through material up to 20mm thick (~3/4") and I don't think the cistern walls are that thick. I suppose worst case I could make a submersibile waterproof container to put sensors in (with weights) and set them in place inside the cistern-- but they are supposed to work on exterior cistern walls.

It runs at 220v but can handle up to 250v.

It supposedly fits in a regular electrical box (I'm assuming that is a 1 gang box but am waiting for a reply from seller or customers).

What do you guys think?