Night vision/thermal optics for $500ish?

[Alaskajohn]

I heard a noise last night about a mile off that didn’t appear to be animal made. It got my dog on alert for a good hour as he sat at the window looking, smelling and listening. I want something to help me see at night, probably hand held and not mounted on a rifle. But I am open. Since it’s only dark in the cooler/colder months, I am thinking thermal imaging would be better than night vision, but I am also open.

Are there better options than this for about $500, more or less?

FLIR Scout Handheld for $479 looks like an option.




Any thoughts?

 

[Sourdough]

What did it sound like........??? "Moaning".......??? Metallic "Boink" (Kind'a like dropping a marble in an empty coffee can).........??? A loud "Grunt"..........??? Or all three of the above.......???

This is the last three days of moose hunting season, and being Friday night, likely moose hunters calling moose.

 

[Alaskajohn]

What did it sound like........??? "Moaning".......??? Metallic "Boink" (Kind'a like dropping a marble in an empty coffee can).........??? A loud "Grunt"..........??? Or all three of the above.......???

This is the last three days of moose hunting season, and being Friday night, likely moose hunters calling moose.

metallic sound, so human. Three times in less than 2 minutes. Clear and windless, so we could hear even though it was far off.

 

[Caribou]

I haven't had much chance to use mine so I can't really give you a valid range report.

 

[Alaskajohn]

metallic sound, so human. Three times in less than 2 minutes. Clear and windless, so we could hear even though it was far off.

In theory, a bear might have gotten into stuff in one of the several basically old abandoned cabins of in that direction. With the clear, cool, windless night, it could have been more than a mile off.

 

[Alaskajohn]

I haven't had much chance to use mine so I can't really give you a valid range report.

Which one do you have?

 

[Aerindel]

I heard a noise last night about a mile off that didn’t appear to be animal made. It got my dog on alert for a good hour as he sat at the window looking, smelling and listening. I want something to help me see at night, probably hand held and not mounted on a rifle. But I am open. Since it’s only dark in the cooler/colder months, I am thinking thermal imaging would be better than night vision, but I am also open.

Are there better options than this for about $500, more or less?

FLIR Scout Handheld for $479 looks like an option.




Any thoughts?

I have the same question.

Night vision seems to have a hard price 'basement' that it can't get under due to inherent technological requirements.

But thermal seems to have the potential to become cheap without giving up quality.

 

[Sourdough]

But thermal seems to have the potential to become cheap without giving up quality.

That is "not" my understanding. And I spent over two years doing research before I bought mine.

 

[Caribou]

Which one do you have?

The one you posted.

 

[Hardcalibres]

The specs on that FLIR Scout TK that will determine how well it works are:

Resolution: 160 x 120

and

Detect Man: 100 yards

160x120 is very low resolution - that will mean that while you may be able to find hot things out in the night, the low resolution will mean they look more like an odd shaped blob than their real shape. Shape is one of the key ways that we identify what things we see are.

FLIR are only claiming that the unit can detect a man at 100 yards - but that is likely to mean you can detect something about man sized is there at 100 yards. It is likely at that resolution, you cannot be sure it is a man, you don't know which way it is facing and you can't identify what is around it.

The high end units currently have 640x480 resolution (and have had for about a decade).

There are plenty of youtube videos that show what the imaging is provided at different ranges.

This video does a comparison at up to 100 yards (see 5:00 to 6:00) that sort of shows that at 100 yards you won't really know what is giving off heat. Much beyond that and you may not know anything is there.



The handheld low resolution thermals were mostly intended for finding downed game in the dark. They probably do an OK job of that as long as you have an accurate idea of where the game is down within 50-100 yards or so.

 

[Peanut]

Looks like different data on different websites... One of them is incorrect...

 

[Hardcalibres]

Looks like different data on different websites... One of them is incorrect...

View attachment 72457

The 640x480 is the display resolution.

The 160x120 is the detector resolution.

Even if the display has very high resolution, it is the detector resolution that determines the resolution of the images you see in the viewer.

 

[Peanut]

Ahh! Thanks for clearing that up. With the current prices for quality I'll go back to hoping a truck loaded with night vision eq has an accident on the state highway... 'Bout the only way I'll get something.

 

[Hardcalibres]

Here is a youtube user that does a lot of thermal hog hunting using 640x480 high price, civilian, weapon mounted thermal.

Warning: Don't watch the videos if you are upset seeing animals get shot.

These hogs are pests and they do a lot of damage.......

http://www.youtube.com/c/HornHillRange/videos
Even with the good gear they have, almost all their shots are under 200 yards - the thermal just doesn't work well enough out much further than that.

 

[Aerindel]

160x120 is very low resolution - that will mean that while you may be able to find hot things out in the night, the low resolution will mean they look more like an odd shaped blob than their real shape. Shape is one of the key ways that we identify what things we see are.

Sure, but I've found in practice, it barely matters.

Several times a year I end up doing search and rescue ops using FLIR brand TICs.

Rarely does anything very far away, in cover, look like anything more than a blob.

But for these purposes, its doesn't matter as if you see a blob, thats good enough to know something is there, and every 'something', is worth checking out if your purposely looking for somebody.

The model I use has a resolution of 160x120. It also costs about $3,000, although I suspect a lot of that is just the usual emergency equipment price gouging.

 

[Peanut]

Here in the southeast hog hunting is done up close and personal. 50yrds or less is par for the course. Having 200yrds of view isn't common.

 

[Sourdough]

The "Refresh Speed" is very important for Thermal, and that rate substantially effects cost.

 

[Hardcalibres]

Sure, but I've found in practice, it barely matters.

Several times a year I end up doing search and rescue ops using FLIR brand TICs.

Rarely does anything very far away, in cover, look like anything more than a blob.

But for these purposes, its doesn't matter as if you see a blob, thats good enough to know something is there, and every 'something', is worth checking out if your purposely looking for somebody.

The model I use has a resolution of 160x120. It also costs about $3,000, although I suspect a lot of that is just the usual emergency equipment price gouging.
View attachment 72461

Agreed - but if the thing you are looking at is a bad guy, then you really need to know who it is (PID), what they have, what they are doing, whether they know you are there, etc, etc.

.....and it will probably involve elevated risk if you have to go over there to check them out.

 

[Aerindel]

Agreed - but if the thing you are looking at is a bad guy, then you really need to know who it is (PID), what they have, what they are doing, whether they know you are there, etc, etc.

.....and it will probably involve elevated risk if you have to go over there to check them out.

Better is always better.

But the guy who can see a blob 100 yards away at night still has a superpower compared to the guy who can't see anything because he held out for the $5,000 scope that he couldn't afford.

The question isn't if a $500 thermal scope has any use.....its if there is a better $500 dollar thermal scope.

 

[Hardcalibres]

Better is always better.

But the guy who can see a blob 100 yards away at night still has a superpower compared to the guy who can't see anything because he held out for the $5,000 scope that he couldn't afford.

The question isn't if a $500 thermal scope has any use.....its if there is a better $500 dollar thermal scope.

Yep - understood.

But consider this for perspective:

When most people look through $5000 night vision - they go "Wow....that is amazing"

But when most people look through $5000 thermal - they go "Is that it?"

What usually disappoints them is lack of resolution, slow framing rate (which is obvious when you pan a thermal quickly), the need for manual NUCing, the fact that animals actually don't stand out for a few to several hours after the sunset of a hot day, the lack of good view of the foreground and background, short battery life, inability to see through glass, etc, etc

With thermal, it usually takes $20000 mil spec stuff to make people go "wow"......

That all makes finding an impressive thermal for $500 difficult.

 

[haboob]

I know cheap is usually bad, but I looked on Amazon and there are options, even down to $79, good reviews and all. Not incredible but if you just want to see what's out there, this might be good enough...?

 

[Alaskajohn]

With the above discussion on the limitations of IR at this price, are there night vision scopes for about $500 that would be better to consider?

 

[Caribou]

Peanut brought up a good point and got me thinking.

I'm not taking a shot, at night, over 100 yards anyway. In the daylight, if I need thermal to see my game, I probably won't shoot anything as I want to identify my target. I've met hunters that took "sound shots", I was not impressed.

 

[Aerindel]

I know cheap is usually bad, but I looked on Amazon and there are options, even down to $79, good reviews and all. Not incredible but if you just want to see what's out there, this might be good enough...?

In my experience, gen 1 nightvision is no better than night adapted eyes unless at close range (50 feet) AND in complete darkness. Other than that, I find I'm better off with just eyeballs.

The device you linked to is an infared camera with a display. Not really 'night vision' in the traditional sense, it just is sensitive to IR light, (which it emits)

It's similar to security cameras with IR illuminators.

I think its worth making the point that nightvision lets you see things without a flashlight.

Thermal lets you see things you CAN'T see even with a flashlight.

If you don't care about your own stealth, you don't need nightvision, you just need a good light.

Thermal is a lot harder to 'see' things with....but it has the super power of seeing things you couldn't with the naked eye. The downside is, it DOESN'T see some things that you actually could see with the naked eye.

IME, whats its really good for is 'scanning' a wide area for points of interest. It does a poor job of telling you WHAT you are looking at, but a really good job of telling you WHERE you should be looking. You can think of it perhaps like a metal detector. It doesn't tell you what is buried...but it massively narrows down your search area.

 

[Alaskajohn]

It looks like Gen 2 and above start off at about $1,800 and above, and goes up significantly from there.

 

[Hardcalibres]

If you do go with a G2 or G3 NVD, then try to get something in a PVS14 body.

Handheld viewers seem like a good idea to "just look out from the porch to see what made that noise", but to get the most out of that big investment, you really need to be able to head mount the unit so you can move around and do things. It is also handy to be able to weapon mount the NVD behind an Aimpoint or an EOTech.

There are countless different mounting systems for the PVS14 platform.

Just don't mount it onto a heavy recoiling rifle - otherwise you will shake it to pieces.

 

[Alaskajohn]

If you do go with a G2 or G3 NVD, then try to get something in a PVS14 body.

Handheld viewers seem like a good idea to "just look out from the porch to see what made that noise", but to get the most out of that big investment, you really need to be able to head mount the unit so you can move around and do things. It is also handy to be able to weapon mount the NVD behind an Aimpoint or an EOTech.

There are countless different mounting systems for the PVS14 platform.

Just don't mount it onto a heavy recoiling rifle - otherwise you will shake it to pieces.

So, I need to find something that kicks less than my 45-70???

 

[Hardcalibres]

So, I need to find something that kicks less than my 45-70???

Correct.

If you do want to shoot your 45/70 in the dark, then get a head mounted NVD, work out how to put an M1913 picatinny rail on your rifle and mount one of these on the rail:

https://olightworld.com/olight-baldr-ir
The laser on that olight (which is about the cheapest IR laser option around) is visible out to >200 yards for an NVD, but otherwise invisible.

 

[Alaskajohn]

Correct.

If you do want to shoot your 45/70 in the dark, then get a head mounted NVD, work out how to put an M1913 picatinny rail on your rifle and mount one of these on the rail:

https://olightworld.com/olight-baldr-ir
The laser on that olight (which is about the cheapest IR laser option around) is visible out to >200 yards for an NVD, but otherwise invisible.

If I had that light on, wouldn't that make it easy for a bad guy to find me?

 

[Hardcalibres]

If I had that light on, wouldn't that make it easy for a bad guy to find me?

The switch for the BALDR IR has two positions, light only and laser only.

Select "laser only" and when you switch the unit on, you only activate the IR aiming laser - only other people with NVDs will be able to see you (and your aiming laser).

Units like the PEQ15 have both IR and visible aiming lasers and an IR illuminator for the darkest nights.......