Power to the people...

Homesteading & Country Living Forum

Help Support Homesteading & Country Living Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

SheepDog

Awesome Friend
Neighbor
HCL Supporter
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
9,319
Location
SE Washington State
The two largest electric car companies got together and admitted there is not enough electricity produced to keep up with electric cars and trucks. If we stop using fossil fuels to generate electricity then the grid goes down, HARD. Hydroelectric is not enough to keep the grid going and solar and wind is worthless in the larger picture. That leaves nuclear power. With the danger of catastrophic and unexpected disassembly of nuclear power plants it would seem the population would never accept them. Current nuclear reactors use a small percentage of the fuel put in them before it has to be removed and placed into storage requiring constant cooling. In operation the current plants use water to cool the reactors and to transfer the heat they produce to turn steam turbines to make electricity. Reactors use high pressure
(2200 psi) to keep the coolant from boiling and to provide the amount of heat necessary to run the turbines. If a pump breaks down or a pipe breaks then the coolant flashes to super-heated steam and coolant is lost while reactor temperatures quickly rise to dangerous levels. Fuel rods can catch fire and melt causing a tremendous disaster like Chernobyl or Fukushima event. To make matters worse a water cooled reactor has to remain at a reduced power level to get rid of gaseous products before it can increase its power output. So it cannot respond quickly to sudden load increases.

What if... what if we could run a reactor at atmospheric pressure use a cheaper fuel and use it completely and at the same time use the waste that is from the old reactors so there is no more long term storage required? What if this new reactor didn't produce plutonium or U235 that are used to make bombs? What if we didn't need water to cool it or to transfer heat to run the turbines to generate electricity? What if we could make it so it could respond to sudden increases in power so it could respond to sudden demands? While we are at "what if's" what if we could make it "walk away safe"? If the reactor was running and everyone just walked away for a couple days off - or they decided not to come back and the reactor would still be completely safe?

That all sounds too good to be true but it is possible. As a matter of fact it has been done. The reactor operated from 1965 to 1969. The nation walked away from that technology in favor of the high pressure water cooled reactor because we needed the Plutonium and U235 for weapons development.

The Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor (LFTR LiFTeR) is capable of all the above and we know that because it was tested in an operating reactor for about 4 years. The LFTR reactors are cheaper to build because they don't require pressure vessels to hold the reactor or containment buildings to hold the steam because there is no water. We use a liquid fuel so as it heats up reaction in the reactor drop. As the liquid fuel cools it contracts and the reactions increase. That makes it "walk away safe". In a worst case scenario where the grid goes down the reactor will maintain its function but it is a waste because there is no grid to power. A fan connected to the grid stops and a fluoride plug in the bottom of the reactor melts allowing the fuel to flow into a secondary vessel where it cools back to a solid and all reactions stop. The fuel is easily recovered and placed back into the main reactor vessel and heated to begin the process of making power. The reactor can have new fuel added without shutting it down and have elements removed for medical and science use and to power NASA's deep space rovers. No Plutonium is ever produced and no long lived actinides are produced. U233 is produced to maintain the reactions but it is not good for weapons because it radiates neutrons which make it unfriendly to use in the manufacture and handling of weapons. There is no protection currently that can stop or hold the neutrons. In the reactor it is combined with Fluoride which captures the neutrons until it is added to the liquid fluoride in the reactor. There the neutrons collide with other U233 molecules and the Thorium to make Thorium 233 which rapidly changes to a precursor of U233 and is removed from the reaction to decay into U233 and added back to the reactor as a uranium/fluoride salt. Unlike the water cooled reactor the LFTR has to be heated to work. It cannot overheat as the expansion causes the reactions to slow which removes heat and then as it cools the fluid contracts and the reactions speed up. It operates at atmospheric pressure. NO EXPLOSION hazard!
So, we can build SAFE and reliable reactors without needing waste storage or making weapons grade components while maintaining those isotopes necessary to medical, scientific and space agencies. The fuel is cheap because it is found almost everywhere and requires no purification or enrichment. (if you had to install a radon fan in your basement your land contains Thorium)
 
Last edited:
Nice post!

I spent many years working on applications to instrument and automate the research done at Bechtel Bettis (formally Westinghouse Bettis) research laboratories where the Navy's atomic fleet is supported. The research required to build Shippingport power plant was conducted there.

These 2 propaganda videos ( there may be a third) offer a great insight into the research and design of that plant. (Note the title in Russian)






To work in the labs I needed security clearances and escourts while in the lab (including trips to the mens room). In many of the labs I was permitted to touch any equipment and tarps were used to cover up what I was not allowed to see. Those videos show the stuff that was covered by tarps. Particularly the fuel rod finishing lab.

Comments

1
I learned about what was going on in those labs from those videos than I did from working there for years.

2
While I did not work with any of the people that appear in those videos, my contacts did.

3
The duel rods used UO2 which was already oxidized and stood up to corosion because it was already an oxide. They could melt but not corrode.

4
Shippingport was the only commercial breeder reactor ever built in the US.

5
Unlike Chernoble, the US reactors were designed such that the reactors would cool down rather than the Russian versions that had to be kept from going out of control.

6
To get into the parking lot I needed to cleared ahead of time to get past the guard with automatic weapons. Inside was a 15' tall barb wire fencce with cable reinforcement and new Jersey barriers.

7
About 10 years ago research was being done to replace the high pressure water with super cooled CO2 (SCCO2) because;
A
Once heated the cooling loop did not require pumps
B
CO2 was a natural fire extinguisher.

8
U of Pitt only graduated 3 Engineering Physics major every year and they all went to work at Bettis or went on for their PHD, until I graduated. I was the first to work elsewhere. None of those E-Phys majors ever left Bettis. I called it black hole where -Phys went in but were never seen again. ;)

That is all I can add at the moment.

I hope you enjoy the videos.

Ben
 
See here for info on SCCO2 research.

https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/Eric-M-Clementoni-2057008339
These images show the application used to control the SCCO2 test loop.

Nested Docking.PNG


unDock_All.PNG



Ben
 
Last edited:
I'm lost on this subject .I thought it was Laura Ingraham " Power to the People" thing.So I'll just say 'hi'.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neb
Ben,
The "B" reactor built at Hanford was a breeder reactor (the first) that operated from September, 1944. Reactors "D" and "F" went online in November, 1944 for a total of three breeder reactors to produce Plutonium for the Los Alamos project. (Manhattan Project)
There were a total of nine reactors before they were shut down and there is currently one commercial reactor/power plant running.
The complex included separation plants to remove the Plutonium from the spent fuel rods and centrifuges to separate the fissionable Uranium from the "depleted" Uranium that was used to make plutonium. All of the nuclear waste is stored at the site and the poorly designed tanks have been replaced at least once and the area pumped out several times. It is the most heavily poisoned area in the USA. It is still leaking actinides into the ground and river waters. Clean-up has been underway for decades. I doubt it will ever end.
 
Ben,
The "B" reactor built at Hanford was a breeder reactor (the first) that operated from September, 1944. Reactors "D" and "F" went online in November, 1944 for a total of three breeder reactors to produce Plutonium for the Los Alamos project. (Manhattan Project)
There were a total of nine reactors before they were shut down and there is currently one commercial reactor/power plant running.
The complex included separation plants to remove the Plutonium from the spent fuel rods and centrifuges to separate the fissionable Uranium from the "depleted" Uranium that was used to make plutonium. All of the nuclear waste is stored at the site and the poorly designed tanks have been replaced at least once and the area pumped out several times. It is the most heavily poisoned area in the USA. It is still leaking actinides into the ground and river waters. Clean-up has been underway for decades. I doubt it will ever end.
Only commercial breeder reactor as I was told by by Bettis buddy.

Ben
 
That might be it. Breeder reactors were classified as evil because they were primarily used to produce Plutonium but the LFTR reactors are breeder reactors that make the fuel they burn. They don't need to be a fast reactor which keeps it easy not to produce any unwanted actinides. LFTR reactors operate in a thermal state so the neutrons are "slow". No long lived elements are made so no long term storage in the "waste" which is almost entirely usable. They can also burn the waste from the "fast" reactors safely and get rid of the actinides in the spent fuel rods.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top