Saying hello / introduction/ ? RE: Hydro power

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Time2Go

Time2Go

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Aug 18, 2020
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Hello. I live and have lived most of my life in "the city." However, I had a split family and the other family lived very rural , downright "country" life. I enjoy both aspects of life in that regard. I'm perfectly fine in a 5 star resort, or a simple back pack with a few tools and drop me off in the woods and I'm going to be just fine. Truly comfortable either way.

However as I age I'm realizing I got caught in the rat race system and unfortunately will have a very difficult time getting off grid financially speaking. I'd like to be 100% pretty much self sufficient. Also, I'm good at math. Logic guides my almost every decision. Even if the logic makes me not like the answer.

So in my head, the bare basics, in order, is #1 water. #2 Power so that you can use tools that require power to build #3) A roof over your head.

There are varying other sorted needs (vs wants) like food, hygiene, health, etc...... that of course will all need to balanced and hopefully, grow stronger in place.....but without water and power your done before you start.

So, I have a place picked out. Property. TN. Sits right on a beautiful big enough "creek" to turn a water wheel / turbine. Assuming the water is "clean" / (IE: no Dupont - Roundup at deadly levels) ...... then I'll have clean water and instant power.

I'm thinking of going DC at first - just for the sheer simplicity / cost factors. (No inverters/etc) ...... DO NOT GET ME WRONG > Eventually ...... yes...... I'd have the resources to put in a proper AC inverter / proper wiring for a home, etc so it would be like any other home in America.

But Maybe DC for a bit might have to be enough. What sort of problems / limitations can I expect with only using DC power for a while?
 
Time2Go said:
Hello. I live and have lived most of my life in "the city." However, I had a split family and the other family lived very rural , downright "country" life. I enjoy both aspects of life in that regard. I'm perfectly fine in a 5 star resort, or a simple back pack with a few tools and drop me off in the woods and I'm going to be just fine. Truly comfortable either way.

However as I age I'm realizing I got caught in the rat race system and unfortunately will have a very difficult time getting off grid financially speaking. I'd like to be 100% pretty much self sufficient. Also, I'm good at math. Logic guides my almost every decision. Even if the logic makes me not like the answer.

So in my head, the bare basics, in order, is #1 water. #2 Power so that you can use tools that require power to build #3) A roof over your head.

There are varying other sorted needs (vs wants) like food, hygiene, health, etc...... that of course will all need to balanced and hopefully, grow stronger in place.....but without water and power your done before you start.

So, I have a place picked out. Property. TN. Sits right on a beautiful big enough "creek" to turn a water wheel / turbine. Assuming the water is "clean" / (IE: no Dupont - Roundup at deadly levels) ...... then I'll have clean water and instant power.

I'm thinking of going DC at first - just for the sheer simplicity / cost factors. (No inverters/etc) ...... DO NOT GET ME WRONG > Eventually ...... yes...... I'd have the resources to put in a proper AC inverter / proper wiring for a home, etc so it would be like any other home in America.

But Maybe DC for a bit might have to be enough. What sort of problems / limitations can I expect with only using DC power for a while?
Click to expand...

:welcome:from a N. Florida transplant.
I too love the city or what it use to be about 40 yr ago Atlanta was a safe wonderful beautiful city.I wouldn't go downtown now in a tank.
But the 100 acres of land we had in Stoen Mountain was just as good in a different way.
 
The question will be will your hydroelectric generation be able to supply enough current to charge a 12 V battery, or multiple 12 V batteries. I don’t have any experience with water turbines. I have used and have at my disposal solar panels and have found that a 100 W panel will supply about 5 A of current in bright sunlight. Would you have a clearing that would allow enough light to charge a battery system? Maybe as a back up?
 
Time2Go said:
What sort of problems / limitations can I expect with only using DC power for a while?
Click to expand...
Most things in our lives require AC power. Often times the electric things require AC power but change it into DC internally before actually using the power. Still you need that AC.
Some things can be purchased that run on DC. Lights are easy. There are small DC refrigerators. Some small kitchen appliances can be purchased that run on DC power. There are DC fans and such.
But having just DC power is very limiting. Even almost all battery-powered tools have only AC powered chargers for the batteries.
Obviously you can hook up a power inverter to get AC power. But that wasn't your question.
 
The Lazy L said:
Sounds like you’ve thought it out. Creek current hopefully strong enough to generate power?
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Oh yes. Spots with white water on property. Plenty of "volume" of water headed downstream. My plan now is to divert the water upstream via PCV pipe / ? / Pipe...... to a distribution center about midway down the property slope so the water dumps out into an above ground "tank" .....and the tank is round in shape. Now insert - essentially fan blades onto a rod and when then water fills up that tank.....I pull the plug on the lower end and the water flows turning the turbine I have above ground so I can maintiaine it / cover it/ etc...... Fan blades would be big enough so no fish are hurt and the water simply follows gravity out the other end back into the creek. 24/7 turbine. No worries.
 
Amish Heart said:
Welcome from Kansas. I would absolutely put food before power needs. I could live without power, but not food.
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Technically, yes. You are correct. I'm afraid I got a little lost in my explanation and wandered a bit. The food is an automatic assumption......... meaning....... I will not just go the land and start creating bows and arrows to hunt squirrels. Lol..... I will have $ to feed myself. What I meant was.... ASSUMING THAT ..... then you get your water and power situation up and running ASAP. From there, you increase your "compounds strengths" little by little, day by day.
 
hiwall said:
Most things in our lives require AC power. Often times the electric things require AC power but change it into DC internally before actually using the power. Still you need that AC.
Some things can be purchased that run on DC. Lights are easy. There are small DC refrigerators. Some small kitchen appliances can be purchased that run on DC power. There are DC fans and such.
But having just DC power is very limiting. Even almost all battery-powered tools have only AC powered chargers for the batteries.
Obviously you can hook up a power inverter to get AC power. But that wasn't your question.
Click to expand...

I understand. You're exactly right. And that's exactly my plan. Like I said, it's the financing part that's going to kill me ......so..... If I can suck it up and use little DC appliances and stuff for the first 6 months just to get by until I can afford an inverter and all that comes with it......so be it. I'm willing to sacrifice up front for long term vision of having a full proper DC and AC system with zero concerns for power. ----- But that's long term plan. Make sense now?
 
kd4ulw said:
The question will be will your hydroelectric generation be able to supply enough current to charge a 12 V battery, or multiple 12 V batteries. I don’t have any experience with water turbines. I have used and have at my disposal solar panels and have found that a 100 W panel will supply about 5 A of current in bright sunlight. Would you have a clearing that would allow enough light to charge a battery system? Maybe as a back up?
Click to expand...

It won't be needed. You have to think beautiful wide and deep TN creek that's moving downhill at a pretty good clip. I'd estimate the creek to be 24 to 30 feet across....... TONS of water. Mix in a little man made gravity (pipes to control current) and this turbine I have in mind will run non stop.
 
Time2Go said:
I understand. You're exactly right. And that's exactly my plan. Like I said, it's the financing part that's going to kill me ......so..... If I can suck it up and use little DC appliances and stuff for the first 6 months just to get by until I can afford an inverter and all that comes with it......so be it. I'm willing to sacrifice up front for long term vision of having a full proper DC and AC system with zero concerns for power. ----- But that's long term plan. Make sense now?
Click to expand...
For many things it would likely be cheaper to use AC and have a small inverter. Often DC appliances are more expensive than their AC counterparts.
 
Two ways to generate hydroelectric: Large volume or large head. Most of the personal water turbine operate on large head - high speed water with moderate flow. They don't make enough power to run a house. You can usually get enough power to run lights (LED) and a small water pump but you won't run appliances with them. High volume is easier to get more power but the equipment is larger and more expensive.
I suggest you concentrate on good shelter first, then water, then food, and then the rest. You don't need power to build things it just makes it go faster. On our property we put up the cabin first. and we were glad we did. It's hard to do anything when you sleep in a tent and there is 2 feet of snow on the ground. We got water in the following year. The power was done with a few solar panels and some batteries and an inverter. We increased the power as required. We put in the septic and filled the outhouse in on the third year.
 
SheepDog said:
Two ways to generate hydroelectric: Large volume or large head. Most of the personal water turbine operate on large head - high speed water with moderate flow. They don't make enough power to run a house. You can usually get enough power to run lights (LED) and a small water pump but you won't run appliances with them. High volume is easier to get more power but the equipment is larger and more expensive.
I suggest you concentrate on good shelter first, then water, then food, and then the rest. You don't need power to build things it just makes it go faster. On our property we put up the cabin first. and we were glad we did. It's hard to do anything when you sleep in a tent and there is 2 feet of snow on the ground. We got water in the following year. The power was done with a few solar panels and some batteries and an inverter. We increased the power as required. We put in the septic and filled the outhouse in on the third year.
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I do not understand this bolded statement...... *unless*, you meant > You won't have enough DC to power a home 24/7 like a "normal" home.

Further meaning - the way I explained it - left you to believe (I assume?) there would be no battery bank.

Based on the amount of water that I have seen with my own eyes, this "creek" is at least 24 FT wide and it's running in the TN mountains / and the specific property I am looking at is on an incline. So...... to me....... MASSIVE downhill water by sheer volume being funneled off, down a straight shot gravity pipe to the bottom of the property Would turn a fairly dang large turbine spinning relatively smooth as baby's butt....... not wide open but not barely running either....... and I go back to the sheer volume of water and gravity. If 1 turbine isn't enough, I can always install 2 or 10. This is closer to being a river than it is a "creek."

So, I'm not understanding that statement. I'm pretty confident I have enough water to run a pretty serious power source.
 
Time2Go said:
I do not understand this bolded statement...... *unless*, you meant > You won't have enough DC to power a home 24/7 like a "normal" home.

Further meaning - the way I explained it - left you to believe (I assume?) there would be no battery bank.

Based on the amount of water that I have seen with my own eyes, this "creek" is at least 24 FT wide and it's running in the TN mountains / and the specific property I am looking at is on an incline. So...... to me....... MASSIVE downhill water by sheer volume being funneled off, down a straight shot gravity pipe to the bottom of the property Would turn a fairly dang large turbine spinning relatively smooth as baby's butt....... not wide open but not barely running either....... and I go back to the sheer volume of water and gravity. If 1 turbine isn't enough, I can always install 2 or 10. This is closer to being a river than it is a "creek."

So, I'm not understanding that statement. I'm pretty confident I have enough water to run a pretty serious power source.
Click to expand...
Having a viable water source is only one step. hydro electric power generators are expensive. Plus you still need an expensive battery bank. Where solar is viable it is cheaper than hydro.
 
Time2Go said:
I do not understand this bolded statement...... *unless*, you meant > You won't have enough DC to power a home 24/7 like a "normal" home.

Further meaning - the way I explained it - left you to believe (I assume?) there would be no battery bank.

Based on the amount of water that I have seen with my own eyes, this "creek" is at least 24 FT wide and it's running in the TN mountains / and the specific property I am looking at is on an incline. So...... to me....... MASSIVE downhill water by sheer volume being funneled off, down a straight shot gravity pipe to the bottom of the property Would turn a fairly dang large turbine spinning relatively smooth as baby's butt....... not wide open but not barely running either....... and I go back to the sheer volume of water and gravity. If 1 turbine isn't enough, I can always install 2 or 10. This is closer to being a river than it is a "creek."

So, I'm not understanding that statement. I'm pretty confident I have enough water to run a pretty serious power source.
Click to expand...

I take it you have a place on that huge 'creek'?
 
Time2go,
The average household uses over 10,000 watt hours daily. Assuming 240 volt power you need to produce 42 amp hours continuously. Your battery backup needs to be 24 42 Amp hour batteries (actually 48 so you don't drain the batteries). Peak demand in one average home is 6000 amps for an hour or slightly more.
Now if you modify the way you live you can exist on very little power. Washing clothes by hand wringing them and hanging them on the line, using a wood cook stove and doing without a freezer or refrigerator and using a gas generator for power tools will get you down to where you need only a couple of Kw of power.
If the pipe is vertical there is .43 psi per linear foot. If it is on a grade the weight is multiplied by the tangent of the angle. at 30 degree slope that is .57 so if you have a 100 foot drop (head height) that is vertical you have 43 psi but if it is on a 30 slope you have 43 x .57 = 24.8 psi.
A 4 inch pipe will supply 150 cubic inches of water x feet per second. With less than 1 g of acceleration your water velocity is going to be about 13 feet per second. (after frictional losses) You are going to need a very large pipe and a very large turbine to get enough power from it.

The size of the water supply is unimportant unless you can use all of it in a vertical drop. (or enough of it)
 
Time2Go said:
Yes. 10 Acres with complete, unfettered access to water. In fact, the property line line literally runs straight through the middle of the creek / mini river all the way up the entire tact of land.
Click to expand...

Love it, wish we had aone on our property:thumbs:
 
SheepDog said:
Time2go,
The average household uses over 10,000 watt hours daily. Assuming 240 volt power you need to produce 42 amp hours continuously. Your battery backup needs to be 24 42 Amp hour batteries (actually 48 so you don't drain the batteries). Peak demand in one average home is 6000 amps for an hour or slightly more.
Now if you modify the way you live you can exist on very little power. Washing clothes by hand wringing them and hanging them on the line, using a wood cook stove and doing without a freezer or refrigerator and using a gas generator for power tools will get you down to where you need only a couple of Kw of power.
If the pipe is vertical there is .43 psi per linear foot. If it is on a grade the weight is multiplied by the tangent of the angle. at 30 degree slope that is .57 so if you have a 100 foot drop (head height) that is vertical you have 43 psi but if it is on a 30 slope you have 43 x .57 = 24.8 psi.
A 4 inch pipe will supply 150 cubic inches of water x feet per second. With less than 1 g of acceleration your water velocity is going to be about 13 feet per second. (after frictional losses) You are going to need a very large pipe and a very large turbine to get enough power from it.

The size of the water supply is unimportant unless you can use all of it in a vertical drop. (or enough of it)
Click to expand...

Well - you sure as crap provided the math formulas I need. Lol. I like that cause math don't lie. Still trying to wrap my head around it though. The proverbial light bulb has not gone off in my head yet to get the big picture. So that I can explain it - and understand what I'm explaining, the same way you just did.

I wish I could post pictures of this property so you could get a look at the water but It will not let me attach a file. It's a .jpg file but the system (on this forum's end) is saying it's not a .jpg file........... when I know it damn well is.

Maybe I could try a .png file? IDK
 
Time2Go said:
Well - you sure as crap provided the math formulas I need. Lol. I like that cause math don't lie. Still trying to wrap my head around it though. The proverbial light bulb has not gone off in my head yet to get the big picture. So that I can explain it - and understand what I'm explaining, the same way you just did.

I wish I could post pictures of this property so you could get a look at the water but It will not let me attach a file. It's a .jpg file but the system (on this forum's end) is saying it's not a .jpg file........... when I know it damn well is.

Maybe I could try a .png file? IDK
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If you have a 20' wide creek, it can be done.
P1-BN419_HYDRO__P_20131004200342.jpg

It's just a matter of the cost of construction and how many years it will take to break even.
It definitely can be done. :thumbs:
 
Let's see if these pictures work.
 

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I think I understand what Sheepdog was saying now.

What I do know as fact - See the picture with the bridge? Where it looks wide and fairly deep? THAT PART is in the top right corner of the property. The property runs downhill from there.........

That is a Crap Ton of water, no?
 
Can you get all that water into a big pipe and get it to drop vertically over 60 feet?
Run the water from the hydro plant back into the stream so you don't "interrupt" the flow?
Can you get the Environmental Impact Studies that show that the local fish will not be affected?
Can you afford the pipe and structure to support it and the turbine and generator to use it?
Can you meet any permitting process for the construction and maintenance of a private power supply station?
I think the EIS will stop you cold and the grief of running and maintaining a private power generating station to the satisfaction of the regulatory committee will drive you to suicide.
 
DC into a charge controller to batteries from batteries to a pure sinewave inverter, I would do this system if I had a high volume water source, the only difference is that instead of a DC generator I have a solar array.
 
SheepDog said:
Can you get all that water into a big pipe and get it to drop vertically over 60 feet?
Run the water from the hydro plant back into the stream so you don't "interrupt" the flow?
Can you get the Environmental Impact Studies that show that the local fish will not be affected?
Can you afford the pipe and structure to support it and the turbine and generator to use it?
Can you meet any permitting process for the construction and maintenance of a private power supply station?
I think the EIS will stop you cold and the grief of running and maintaining a private power generating station to the satisfaction of the regulatory committee will drive you to suicide.
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First question: yes.

Anything regarding - "permission" is an automatic FU from me. Period. If they want a war, I'll damn sure give them one.

You seem to be misunderstanding my intentions. The goal is to get away from other people's rules..........

My land, my rules. Period. If they want to escalate to killing me.....so be it.
 
Time2go,
I am not trying to degrade your ideas. I think it would be great but you have to realize that you may hold the deed to the property but there are limits to what you can do. Those restrictions are there to protect the rights of others that may be affected by your actions. They won't kill you but they can and will put you in jail and take your property. The legal system has all the tools it needs.
If you are really serious then talk to a lawyer. See what a real estate attorney can do to help you. You can't get far enough from people to do what ever you want without consequences. Structures have to meet minimum codes and you have to have no severe effects on your neighbors.
 
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