The Exodus

[Neb]

Thanks for posting so I can read. I will need more time to read the remaining to give it the respect it deserves.

Q

Do you have access to Clarke's Commentary ?

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I ask because at 5he end of volume I he includes tables including a table of his best guess at the timing of Genesis. I include photos of same for your enjoyment.

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I read more of your paper but five me time.

Ben

One more picture to come

If you need better images let me know

Ben

 

[Katie Müller]

He's got Jacob's sons born further apart, but I don't think that's accurate. At first it seemed like they would be born over a 20 year period, but Genesis seems to be in chronological order. Looks like Leah and Rachel were having baby-wars over the course of 7 years.

Not finding his chronology on the internet. >.< Thank you for the photos; these are helpful.

 

[Weedygarden]

I haven't even started reading yet, just a little skimming. It looks good, and something that I want to read. I am going to pass it onto my pastor.

 

[Weedygarden]

I don't own Clarke's commentary, no.

It is available in a pdf. Of course, the books are always worth having, imho, but until a person can get ahold of them, pdf is better than nothing. adam clarke commentary pdf download.
I see some of them on Amazon as well in hardback, a virtual option for Kindle, and an app for them as well.

 

[Neb]

He's got Jacob's sons born further apart, but I don't think that's accurate. At first it seemed like they would be born over a 20 year period, but Genesis seems to be in chronological order. Looks like Leah and Rachel were having baby-wars over the course of 7 years.

Not finding his chronology on the internet. >.< Thank you for the photos; these are helpful.

I thought you would find those interesting.


Clarke wrote before Egyptology was a thing. He is cited by many theologians since then.

One interesting preponderance extended by Clarke is related to the form of satan in the garden.

He explored the conversation between Eve and satan. Her cavalier response of Eve to a creature speaking to her.

Spoiler alert!

It ain't a snake.

God's word speaks to us across time. We only have to discern and Find and Do the next right thing.

Ben

 

[Katie Müller]

Neb, do you use e-Sword?

I like to own hard-cover copies of everything, but Bible commentaries are sort of expensive--I mean they're reasonably priced, but because you're getting multiple books it's like $150-$200 investment. When I got the entire commentary of Keil & Delitzsch it was about $150. Dad likes that commentary in particular.

But e-Sword let's me download ever commentary in Public Domain for free! Bible Hub is good too, but I like having a program detached form the internet.

I found Clarke's commentary on Genesis 3 and was reading that this morning. He made some interesting points and parallels I hadn't considered before.

 

[Neb]

Neb, do you use e-Sword?

I like to own hard-cover copies of everything, but Bible commentaries are sort of expensive--I mean they're reasonably priced, but because you're getting multiple books it's like $150-$200 investment. When I got the entire commentary of Keil & Delitzsch it was about $150. Dad likes that commentary in particular.

But e-Sword let's me download ever commentary in Public Domain for free! Bible Hub is good too, but I like having a program detached form the internet.

I found Clarke's commentary on Genesis 3 and was reading that this morning. He made some interesting points and parallels I hadn't considered before.

No. I like paper where I can read using my hand to trace where I am reading. I go cross-eyed reading from a screen.

The Princess and I have a large collection of Bibles and biblical references.

Most of those books are double stacked (books in front of books). You know you have too many books when you cant find a set.

Chances are I will not live long enough to read them all but at least I will not run out of stuff to read.

Ben

 

[TeeJ]

I've gotten about 1/2 of the way through - fascinating read, so many things I hadn't considered. It was perfect timing as our Sunday school reading for this week at church is Exodus 1-6 I'm always so impressed by people who can dig into the scriptures and wrestle so much meaning out of them. I always find my scripture reading just that, reading - I've been trying to make it a deeper study and this surely had encouraged me to do so!

 

[Katie Müller]

@TeeJ - Glad it's perfect timing ^.^ Ever since I was a little kid I always wanted to decode the Exodus and figure it out. Sort of a life's pursuit. So I've watched every documentary and read everything I could on it. I know pretty much every theory out there and then something finally something clicked: I saw the picture and I was able to take all the puzzle pieces I had collected through the years and was finally able to sit down and lay them out.

It's both fun and frustrating doing these things. My dad is waiting for me to finish my Esther research paper. Lol. That got a little heavy and I had to take a break.

@Neb - I want your library, esp. those old books. I've got quite a few books of my own, but I want more!

 

[Neb]

@TeeJ - Glad it's perfect timing ^.^ Ever since I was a little kid I always wanted to decode the Exodus and figure it out. Sort of a life's pursuit. So I've watched every documentary and read everything I could on it. I know pretty much every theory out there and then something finally something clicked: I saw the picture and I was able to take all the puzzle pieces I had collected through the years and was finally able to sit down and lay them out.

It's both fun and frustrating doing these things. My dad is waiting for me to finish my Esther research paper. Lol. That got a little heavy and I had to take a break.

@Neb - I want your library, esp. those old books. I've got quite a few books of my own, but I want more!

Used book stores, library sales are your friend.

Sea story time!

Before I married The Princess I had to be interviewed by the minister who was going to do ceremony. He was my wife's favorite and was soon to retire. Being an ex-Catholic and divorced he wanted to check me out.

After a long talk he called me an apologist and went this bookcase and gave me Clarke's Commentary and...

Saying "I have been looking for someone to give these too that will actually read them."

I have collected old bibles a bout a dozen or so that are 100-150 years old. Check out these old family bibles.

Since bibles were often the only book in the home back then, The family bibles often had engravings to illustrate the narratives.

Some day I hope get serious about book binding and repair what I have.

While I am at it...

Almost all of the big old bibles have a broken front hinge because most people know how to open a big book.

How to open a big book.

Lay the book down flat on it's spine.
Open the book near the center and set the front and back cover down flat.
Only then flip the pages to where you want to read always keeping the front and back covers flat on the table.
Reverse the process to close the book.

The reason the front hinge is the first to go is the front hinge is opened more than 180 degrees.

I do plan to finish your write up!

Ben

 

[Katie Müller]

@Neb That's awesome that he gifted you the commentary! What denomination did your minister turn to when he left Catholicism?

I'll have to show you our Parlor Bible; it's a family heirloom. I counted and we've got over 30 bibles. I found my great grandmother's bible in the library when I was cleaning the library this past winter.

My sister and I have picked up a lot of books from library sales. Last time we went, I wanted to get to the religion and theology table but a pastor and his staff beat me too it and they picked it clean. Lol. I guess they buy the books and then they take it back to their churches for bible study or to give away, which I thought was nice.

My sister wants to get into book binding repair as well. Those are really cool, old bibles. Reminds me of the ones we have. I loved looking at the pictures in them, too ^.^ I think our front cover came off--probably my fault when I was a kid because I did exactly what you're not suppose to do when opening it. Nah, never mind, I'll blame my sister. She can take the fall. That sounds better. It's in her room after all. Ha ha ha.

Do you know the year(ish) that bible was published?

 

[Neb]

@Neb That's awesome that he gifted you the commentary! What denomination did your minister turn to when he left Catholicism?

I'll have to show you our Parlor Bible; it's a family heirloom. I counted and we've got over 30 bibles. I found my great grandmother's bible in the library when I was cleaning the library this past winter.

My sister and I have picked up a lot of books from library sales. Last time we went, I wanted to get to the religion and theology table but a pastor and his staff beat me too it and they picked it clean. Lol. I guess they buy the books and then they take it back to their churches for bible study or to give away, which I thought was nice.

My sister wants to get into book binding repair as well. Those are really cool, old bibles. Reminds me of the ones we have. I loved looking at the pictures in them, too ^.^ I think our front cover came off--probably my fault when I was a kid because I did exactly what you're not suppose to do when opening it. Nah, never mind, I'll blame my sister. She can take the fall. That sounds better. It's in her room after all. Ha ha ha.

Do you know the year(ish) that bible was published?

Sorry.

I was not clear. It was me that was an excatholic. The minister was United Methodist.

Books back then did not always have a publication date. I did find this news paper clipping in that bible.

Notice the paper is still white and not not yellowed which is the case with paper made from wood pulp due to the acid used process the pulp. So the paper was made from rags or hemp. The flip side of the clipping has commodities prices for 1867.

So it seems there are two possibilities.

1
An old clipping was placed in a new bible.

2
A new clipping was placed in an older bible.

You choose.

Similarly with Clarke's Commentary, no publication date. The editor's notes indicate that 1830 was in the past. Found in book of Genesis I found this report card.

So the report card alone is 114 years old.

Ben

 

[Katie Müller]

Wow. We've dumbed down as a nation 75 was passable and now it's 65. That newspaper clipping is soooo cool

I would say 1876 is probably somewhere in the ball-park for the age of that Bible. The one we have is from 1900s. Dad said we had a German one with the family tree in it, but I can't find it.

The cat got in this photo and then moved right when I took the photo lol

 

[Magus]

This is AA+ good stuff kid, you going to publish? I'm not a Christian and I enjoyed it.

 

[Katie Müller]

This is AA+ good stuff kid, you going to publish? I'm not a Christian and I enjoyed it.

Thank you ^.^ I actually would like too. I was thinking of revamping it, expanding it and then attempting to find a publisher.

 

[Magus]

Go for it! if you have some minor stuff you can put them on a website as free and use them for bait and sell your major works.

 

[Neb]

Wow. We've dumbed down as a nation 75 was passable and now it's 65. That newspaper clipping is soooo cool

I would say 1876 is probably somewhere in the ball-park for the age of that Bible. The one we have is from 1900s. Dad said we had a German one with the family tree in it, but I can't find it.

The cat got in this photo and then moved right when I took the photo lol
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Nice bible!

I am still on the hook to finish your write up.

Ben

 

[Katie Müller]

Nice bible!

I am still on the hook to finish your write up.

Ben

If I had ink for my printer I'd print you off a copy and mail it, but alas, I don't have the ink! I can't read off of a screen for long periods of time, so I get it. No worries.

 

[Neb]

Point #4: The location of the Great Prisons in Egypt.

A Great Prison was documented in the Brooklyn Papyrus and was located in Thebes. Another prison was located in Itjtawy, modern day El-Lahun. Since Itjtawy was the state capital during the Middle Kingdom, and the chief baker and butler who served Pharaoh were in the same prison as Joseph, it’s probable that Joseph was more likely relegated to this prison in El-Lahun.

Itjtawy is located far south near Faiyum, where the canal, Bahr Yussef (literally, the waterway of Joseph) is located, supposedly named after the biblical Joseph.

Point #5: RA WORSHIP

• Gen. 41:45 “And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnath-paaneah; and he gave him to wife Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On. And Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt.”

On is the same as Heliopolis, and is located in the apex of the Nile Delta.

Pharaoh was considered the head of the priesthood and thus the highest religious figure in all of Egypt. On or Heliopolis was the cult center for Ra. It was in this Egyptian city that the Mnevis Bull, which was considered the embodiment of Ra, was worshipped and sacrificed. A burial ground for the slaughtered animals was just north of the city. Remember when Pharaoh told Joseph if he knew any competent men to put them over his own cattle?

The Priest of On or the Priest of Ra, translated from ancient Egyptian (wr-mw) meant: ‘The Greatest of Seers’. This is an interesting title for Joseph’s father-in-law, seeing that Joseph himself was gifted in precognition.

Excavations from the sun temples in Abusir, occupied roughly a millennium before Joseph, suggest that “the sun temples had been centers for the processing and distributing of provisions gathered from across the regions of the lower Nile.” And that, “Anciently named ‘the house of the knife’. . .the two known sun temples alone could have supplied more than 200 carcasses a day to the various offices of state--raising important questions of supply.” - A History of Ancient Egypt: From the Great Pyramid to the Fall of the Middle Kingdom Vol. 2, John Romer 1st Edition, pgs. 128-131

The captain-of-the-guard, could be translated as the chief executioner or it could also be translated as the chief butcher. The Priests of On would have been in charge of the animal sacrifices.

The Egyptian priesthood served the temple one month out of four. The priests had varying jobs, some as kitchen staff to the temple, janitors, porters, scribes. Priests also presided over mortuary rituals, removing organs of the deceased, embalming and mummifying the dead, uttering spells to aid the recently departed into the afterlife. These mortuary priests acted the same as physicians. "And Joseph commanded his servants the physicians to embalm his father: and the physicians embalmed Israel." - Gen. 50:2

As a side note, this author would like to point out the interesting, but irrelevant, fact that at least some of Joseph’s servants were mortuary priests.

Continuing: when the priests were ‘off duty’, they returned to civilian life where they inspected local farms and fields owned by the temple, oversaw craftsmen and hunters. Priests were permitted to marry, own estates and keep slaves. High priests, particularly, were paid in land grants and food rations.

Heqanakht, a ka-priest (a priest who daily brings offerings to the deceased, such as bread and beer, so that the ka life-force can be sustained) was described as a farmer-priest. Eight papyrus have been found written or dictated by Heqanakht. These papyri mention him managing his personal household; and the papyri are valued for their documentation regarding wages, transactions and taxes. The taxes were generally paid to Pharaoh in grain.

• Gen. 39:5 And it came to pass from the time that he had made him overseer in his house, and over all that he had, that the LORD blessed the Egyptian's house for Joseph's sake; and the blessing of the LORD was upon all that he had in the house, and in the field.

The social ruling class went as followed: 1.) Pharaoh 2.) government officials, usually these officials were members of the pharaoh’s own household; 3.) priests 4.) and following them were the nobles.

Nobles also owned farmland which the peasantry worked; they made laws and maintained order. Which also fits Potiphar’s profile.

Whether Potiphar was a noble or the same as Poti-Phera Priest of On is a debatable subject, of which no conclusive answer can be given. In fact, the name was a fairly popular one. The Egyptianized version being something along the lines of ‘P’hotep’ra’. Names such as ‘Harhotep’; ‘Ptahhotep’; ‘Rahotep’ are all variations of the name Potiphar, and are names of famous Egyptian viziers, a 4th dynasty Pharaoh and 17th dynasty prince.

Remember, like, a few years ago, every other boy was named Jason, and the girls were all named Brittany? - Hercules (1997)

It’s significant, however, that the priest of On is mentioned in scripture. Pharaoh acknowledging this particular cult of Ra worship (with Poti-Phera meaning ‘he whom Ra has given’) tells the reader that Heliopolis was a major religious center at the time, and Pharaoh, being the head religious figure in the nation, was exercising authority over the religious institution by giving the daughter of a priest to Joseph. This act solidified his political career as well as established his divine appointment by the gods in Egyptian perspective.

The Ra cult had expanded during the old and middle kingdom with Senusret I (c. 1971-1926) erecting the obelisk at the Temple of Ra; the only remnant of the city which still stands today.

This Ra worship is a stark contrast to the Hyksos who, according to Donald Mackenzie (who was quoting Mantheo) in his book Egyptian Myth and Legend wrote, “They ruled ‘not knowing Ra’ and were therefore delivered to oblivion”.

Even Queen Hatshepsut wrote that the Hyksos did not acknowledge Ra and destroyed temples dedicated to the sun god.


If Joseph’s pharaoh acknowledged the Ra Cult, he could not have been a Hyksos king and would had to have been a pharaoh from the 13th dynasty.

Re: Join Romer

Have you seen his series Testament?



Ben

 

[Neb]

IN CONCLUSION

According to the King’s List, the earliest date for the Exodus would have to be 1503 BC, however due to inaccuracies this date is only an approximate.

We know that Pharaoh would have to have had his capital in the Nile Delta, and only the Hyksos ruled from Avaris during that timeframe. Scholarly assumptions on when the Hyksos were expelled from Egypt vary tremendously; dates from 1580 to 1521 BC have all been purposed. Pharaoh Ahmose I, who was responsible for driving the Asiatics back into Canaan, ruled anywhere from 1570-1514 BC.

Pharaoh Ramesses II who sacked Jerusalem is believed by some scholars to be the same Shishak of the bible. This author isn’t going to get into the linguistic proof--interested readers can look up new chronology theories proposed by David Rohl if they are so inclined. However, Ramesses II became one of the mightiest and wealthiest pharaohs of the New Kingdom, and if he had carried away all the treasure of the Temple and the royal palace in Jerusalem that would explain a lot.

If Ramesses II was contemporary with Solomon and Rehoboam that would alter the Egyptian Chronology significantly, seeing that his reign is thought to have begun in 1279 BC. The fifth year of Rehoboam would have been 982 BC, nearly three hundred years later.

Because Egyptian chronology is not precise, the dating of Ahmose I can be difficult. Especially since the Sothic cycle is not well understood nor reliable. Yet, despite the guess-work, we still see Ahmose I falling within the same time period as the Exodus c. 1500 BC.

If we go by the lowest chronology, we have a discrepancy of 18 years from 1503 to 1521.

When looking back nearly 3500 years, such a discrepancy is minute.

We also have an eight spoked chariot wheel found off the Gulf of Aqaba dated 1550-1340. This artifact corresponds with the c. 1500 timeframe. Along with two violent volcanic eruptions dated to 1680-1535 and 1628-1540 BC.

It’s this author’s belief that the Exodus occurred c. 1500-1550 BC, with a dating of 1515-1525, being favored.

The Pharaohs of the Exodus would have been either Khamudi or Apepi, and Ahmose I from Thebes.

The Israelites were enslaved by Hyksos pharaohs and were later delivered out of Egypt shortly before the collapse of the Hyksos dynasty.

Some theories suggest that Ahmose I enslaved the Israelites, but this makes little sense seeing that his entire war campaign in the north was to rid himself from the Asiatics, not make them slaves. Egyptians did not differentiate Hyksos from Israelites, so all of them would have been run out. This dynasty also does not correspond with a capital in the Nile Delta nor does it see any massive destruction at the end the dynasty. The eighteenth dynasty was headquarter at Thebes, was prosperous, and lasted for roughly 260 years.

The only new king who could arise over Egypt (by usurpation as commentators have suggested) and not know Joseph, would have to be a foreigner who did not benefit from Joseph’s life-saving policies during the famine.

The 14th dynasty in Egypt saw a benevolent Levantine leadership in the Nile Delta, which was overcome when the Hyksos, who were a minority in the region, gained control of the provincial government. These men of ‘obscure race’, who were likely Assyrian in origin, killed and lead away women and children into slavery.

The Israelites were multiplying rapidly and, possibly, with male dominant births. The Hyksos/Assyrians, who had already usurped the seat of power away from the Israelites, grew to fear them, anticipating retaliation, perhaps. In order to maintain control of the region, the Israelites were enslaved and the male babies later killed.

Native Egyptians seem to regard the Hyksos with a tolerant attitude and would have followed the orders given regarding the enslavement of the Israelites. So while the officers and taskmasters of pharaoh were native Egyptian, pharaoh himself was not.

Pharaoh Apepi ruled for 35-40 years. This would have been the same duration of time that Moses had lived in Midian. And at the same time, Apepi upset relations with the Theban dynasty to the south.

After his death, Khamudi rose to power with a reign of 1 to 11 years. It’s possible that Moses returned to Egypt during this time and told Khamudi to let the Israelites go.

Meanwhile in the south, Ahmose I gets a revelation from the gods stating, “I have set terror in the northlands and the Hyksos will be slain beneath thy feet”. With this proclamation from the gods, Ahmose I, heads north to campaign against Avaris.

By time he lays siege, the Israelites have already departed. Possibly weakened by the plagues, and the army having been drowned in the Red Sea, the Hyksos could not withstand the Theban forces and succumbed to defeat by the fourth attack.

Many researchers claim that the Exodus never occurred because if it had, there should be some type of evidence documenting the incredible event.

However, Egyptologists and historians are looking for the Exodus in Egyptian records; but if no Egyptian dynasty enslaved the Israelites, no proof of an Exodus will be found and thus the story is mitigated as a fairy-tale.

But if we look into the little-known Hyksos dynasty, that’s where we will find the Exodus story.


LOOKING AHEAD TO THE END OF DAYS

• Isaiah 52:1 "Awake, awake, clothe yourself with strength, O Zion! Put on your garments of splendor...

The Exodus of Israel from Egypt and the Return of Jesus Christ are bookends. History doesn’t repeat, but it surely does rhyme. Let’s not forget it.

Finally finished it. Lot of good work there.

Feedback
A general overview as an introduction would make easier for readers to see what is to come and motivate them to read more. May be a5 little ad tour bolded statements again to tempt people 5o read further.

Much or your conclusion is hinting of another paper. The conclusion should hammer home the points made in the paper.

I have never been impressed with attempts to attribute the plagues to volcanoes. He can do what he wants when he wants. If the volcanoes don't support your message of fixing the date of the exodus why include it? Just my opinion.

If you are going to take on the end time Isaiah is a great voice of God but is really fleshed out in Daniel and Revelation. Uriah Smith wrote a good book "Daniel an the Revelation" written about 1880.

Charles Russel wrote a series of books that are collectively available in "Studies in the Scriptures. Again written in late 1800s.

Q

Do you read Hebrew?

I have started to study it a few times but plan to pick it up again when The Princess retired so we learn it together and use it in daily life.

Thank tou sharing your paper!

Ben

 

[Katie Müller]

Finally finished it. Lot of good work there.

Feedback
A general overview as an introduction would make easier for readers to see what is to come and motivate them to read more. May be a5 little ad tour bolded statements again to tempt people 5o read further.

I will do that. Non-fiction is sort of hard to write because I try to be engaging but at the same time I'm info-dumping and that's never engaging. Lol. Rewriting it in a more narrative way I think would be fun and more engaging.

I have never been impressed with attempts to attribute the plagues to volcanoes. He can do what he wants when he wants. If the volcanoes don't support your message of fixing the date of the exodus why include it? Just my opinion.

I include some of the arguments I've seen and Thera is a very popular theory. I think it's plausible a volcano could have attributed to the plagues, but I agree that area of the paper could be better written.

If you are going to take on the end time Isaiah is a great voice of God but is really fleshed out in Daniel and Revelation. Uriah Smith wrote a good book "Daniel an the Revelation" written about 1880.

Charles Russel wrote a series of books that are collectively available in "Studies in the Scriptures. Again written in late 1800s.

Oh. I will definitely look into those. I've written a paper about the final time-line, bible prophecies and the like, but end-times is. . . .very complicated. And there's so much history. I feel like if I sat down to write down everything and connect everything I'd have a world history book. LOL So I only summarized main points at the end with Isaiah.


Man! You got awesome books.

Do you read Hebrew?

No, I can't read it; I considered learning it but ended up learning German for a while instead. Not that I remember much German anymore. Lol. I didn't have anyone to speak it to. My Dad's learning Vulcan and wants to teach me so we can speak in Vulcan to each other hahaha.

Thank tou sharing your paper!

Ben

Well, thank you for reading it!