The great battery thread

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Just a thought, take a look at Rolls Surrette batteries, they have some really serious amp hour batteries, trouble is that you probably need a fork lift to move them and then there is the price, that's why I went to Costco and bought 20 GC2, 205 ah batteries, at that time they were $85 each and I think the core charge was $9. The last time I looked at GC2 batteries in Costco they had upped the amp hour rating to 210 and there price was over $90, these batteries and the ones we bought were Interstate brand, which we have found over the years to be a very good quality. By getting the batteries from Costco we've saved over $50 per battery, that's about a $1,000 per replacement cost, surely nothing to sneeze at, anyway who knows what the future will bring, there may be a time when replacement batteries are no longer available and candles for lighting and other forms of food storage will be needed other than refrigerators and freezers.
 
viking said:
The last time I looked at GC2 batteries in Costco they had upped the amp hour rating to 210 and there price was over $90, these batteries and the ones we bought were Interstate brand, which we have found over the years to be a very good quality.
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What you won't know is, dedicated people worked around the clock testing them for decades.
We're not talking about nice people here.
Heartless, soul-less, creatures of destruction, committed every act of abuse known to man.
Over-discharge, overcharge, over-amp, below -20F, above 130F, too much water, too little water, impact vibration, if there was a way to kill one, we did.
And we didn't just test Interstate, we tested ALL of them!
We left a wide stream of dead bodies in our wake.
I remember the factory deciding to save-a-buck by switching to putting 'no-name' batteries in equipment instead of Interstate. We were loading dozens of dead bodies in the back of a truck in less than a year.
They switched back quick! Their reputation was on the line.
Deka: Deep-cycle=good. Under the hood of your car, starting the engine, nope.
Been there, killed those.
 
Supervisor42 said:
What you won't know is, dedicated people worked around the clock testing them for decades.
We're not talking about nice people here.
Heartless, soul-less, creatures of destruction, committed every act of abuse known to man.
Over-discharge, overcharge, over-amp, below -20F, above 130F, too much water, too little water, impact vibration, if there was a way to kill one, we did.
And we didn't just test Interstate, we tested ALL of them!
We left a wide stream of dead bodies in our wake.
I remember the factory deciding to save-a-buck by switching to putting 'no-name' batteries in equipment instead of Interstate. We were loading dozens of dead bodies in the back of a truck in less than a year.
They switched back quick! Their reputation was on the line.
Deka: Deep-cycle=good. Under the hood of your car, starting the engine, nope.
Been there, killed those.
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Now you sparked my interest.

Batteries and copper are the only thing standing between me and solar/wind off grid capability.

I have been letting technology figure out what is the best type and manufacturers for batteries.

Ideally... What type manufacturer would YOU recomend?

For what it is worth...

I shoot high and settle for what I can get.

I hope to be able to run a MIG welder for up to 2 hours a day or run whole house air conditioning.

What do Y'all think?

Ben
 
Neb said:
For what it is worth...

I shoot high and settle for what I can get.

I hope to be able to run a MIG welder for up to 2 hours a day or run whole house air conditioning.

What do Y'all think?
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Since I know your background and level, all I can say is run the numbers.
Most people are shocked (pun) by how much electric power they actually use.
It's great when they say they have a couple 300watt panels (in the middle of a sunny day and zero watts at night).
For example JUST our water heater alone draws 4500 watts. Of course it doesn't run that long if we are not using hot water. But that won't matter if the house is 98°F. :oops:
Run the numbers on the A/C. It don't play nice!

Ballpark the house first. For the entire house here, in a good month, 1800 kwhr.
1800/30 days= 60 kwhr per day.
60 kwhr per day = 60,000 watthours over 24 hours,
60,000 wh /24 hrs = 2500watts per hour, every hour of the 24.
Even if the sun shined 50% of the time, every day, I would need twice the output from the panels to keep the batteries charged.
In perfect weather (that never happens) I would need 5000 watts of solar, minimum.
How much do panels cost that can make 5000 watts?
We sometimes have 4 days in a row with no sun.:oops:
Just to see if you have been reading along, how much battery storage do I need to survive the 4-day blackout? Hint: Each day is 60,000 watt-hours.
(Bonus points if you can give your answer in amp-hours@volts, battery-speak:D
 
Supervisor42 said:
Since I know your background and level, all I can say is run the numbers.
Most people are shocked (pun) by how much electric power they actually use.
It's great when they say they have a couple 300watt panels (in the middle of a sunny day and zero watts at night).
For example JUST our water heater alone draws 4500 watts. Of course it doesn't run that long if we are not using hot water. But that won't matter if the house is 98°F. :oops:
Run the numbers on the A/C. It don't play nice!

Ballpark the house first. For the entire house here, in a good month, 1800 kwhr.
1800/30 days= 60 kwhr per day.
60 kwhr per day = 60,000 watthours over 24 hours,
60,000 wh /24 hrs = 2500watts per hour, every hour of the 24.
Even if the sun shined 50% of the time, every day, I would need twice the output from the panels to keep the batteries charged.
In perfect weather (that never happens) I would need 5000 watts of solar, minimum.
How much do panels cost that can make 5000 watts?
We sometimes have 4 days in a row with no sun.:oops:
Just to see if you have been reading along, how much battery storage do I need to survive the 4-day blackout? Hint: Each day is 60,000 watt-hours.
(Bonus points if you can give your answer in amp-hours@volts, battery-speak:D
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I am just too lazy to run those numbers again. That is the reason I limited the MIG to 2 hours a day.

I need to add energy X to my storage to do project Y but what should I purchase to store that energy?

Ben
 
phideaux said:
Been there done that .

You gotta have good access to the too of the batteries.

Jim
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We're thinking of putting the set up on the trailor so if we leave here it will already be packed up,lol. Not planning on leaving though but we can also move it if we want to.Not sure yet do know nobody wwill be climbing up a roof.
 
Did someone say Deka?
Don't neglect these workhorses, tested by the most cruel people on the planet. And they lived!
Dollars per amp hour at volts, per year, they are cheap.
random-deka_1_5.png

Yes, you need an engine hoist to put it in place. But you only gotta do it once and you are done!
Small footprint, 31 7/8L x 11W x 30 1/2H, no cover. Only 12 cells to fill.
24volt, 625ah, 7-year warranty $3,100. Wt:1,248.
Edit: Oh, I forgot it's proper name, it is a 12-125-11.
 
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Supervisor42 said:
Ballpark the house first. For the entire house here, in a good month, 1800 kwhr.
1800/30 days= 60 kwhr per day.
60 kwhr per day = 60,000 watthours over 24 hours,
60,000 wh /24 hrs = 2500watts per hour, every hour of the 24.
Even if the sun shined 50% of the time, every day, I would need twice the output from the panels to keep the batteries charged.
In perfect weather (that never happens) I would need 5000 watts of solar, minimum.
How much do panels cost that can make 5000 watts?
We sometimes have 4 days in a row with no sun.:oops:
Just to see if you have been reading along, how much battery storage do I need to survive the 4-day blackout? Hint: Each day is 60,000 watt-hours.
(Bonus points if you can give your answer in amp-hours@volts, battery-speak:D
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So lets go one step further, your system is 90% efficient in converting from DC to AC,
@12Volts you will need 5,555 Amp-Hours per Day or 22,220 Amp-Hours of storage to cover a 4 day no recharge event, but you will need to increase you solar panel wattage to fully recharge your batteries in a reasonable amount of time...
@24Volts you will need 2,777 Amp-hours per day or 11,108 Amp-Hours of storage to cover your 4 day event...

The numbers get worse if you only discharge to 80% of battery capacity to protect the battery life....
 
UrbanHunter said:
@24Volts you will need 2,777 Amp-hours per day or 11,108 Amp-Hours of storage to cover your 4 day event...

The numbers get worse if you only discharge to 80% of battery capacity to protect the battery life....
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Hello green people, meet reality!!!
17 of the 625ah 24v monster batteries I posted a picture of, would almost be enough.
17 x $3,100= $52,700 ... and we haven't even bought a single solar panel yet!gaah
Oh, @UrbanHunter is the grand prize winner of 24 bonus points!!! :woo hoo:
 
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phideaux said:
If the battery is on a rack under a top shelf /rack , it's difficult to check the water level and add water.

Jim
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That's why we bought an automatic water container, put the nozzle in the battery cell push down and it automatically stops flowing when the cells are covered properly, there are also special caps connected by small plastic tubing fed from a small reservoir that is above the batteries for gravity flow, these special caps stop flowing the water to the cells when they are properly filled, it's an expensive system, so I just us the container type to use when I have checked the electrolyte levels and the cells need toping off.
 
My wife and I lived in an RV for a lot of years. And some of that time, the entire RV operated on a single 20 amp circuit. We learned quickly that, no we couldn't run everything at one time, but we really didn't do without a whole lot either. The fridge ran on gas or electric, so did the water heater. I think even on that 20 amp circuit, we used the electricity way more than the gas. The furnace just had a blower on 12 volts, the heat was gas. We even used the air conditioner a few times. I think the microwave was our single biggest current draw and that was only a few minutes a day. We even had a small chest freezer.

I know, most people don't want to restrict their usage. But a little power can really go a lot farther than most people wanna admit. Just takes a little thought and a little planning.
 
PopPopT said:
My wife and I lived in an RV for a lot of years. And some of that time, the entire RV operated on a single 20 amp circuit. We learned quickly that, no we couldn't run everything at one time, but we really didn't do without a whole lot either. The fridge ran on gas or electric, so did the water heater. I think even on that 20 amp circuit, we used the electricity way more than the gas. The furnace just had a blower on 12 volts, the heat was gas. We even used the air conditioner a few times. I think the microwave was our single biggest current draw and that was only a few minutes a day. We even had a small chest freezer.

I know, most people don't want to restrict their usage. But a little power can really go a lot farther than most people wanna admit. Just takes a little thought and a little planning.
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That's why I tell anyone thinking about solar for their home to think small, think minimal, consider what you can live without, the funny thing is that I designed our solar standby, I just considered a few things and the solar system ended up able to run more than I thought it would.
 
I keep wanting to do solar as a backup, I have even considered have a set of dedicated circuits to be powered by solar, but it requires a very long term commitment.

My dream would be to have a solar high bay, say 3 50' rows of fixed solar panels running east and west set at a about 45 degrees facing south (varies with location relative to the equator), my dream has an elevated gantry, 14' high and 10 feet wide with the solar panels mounted on top of that (service cat walks on the edges an along the center. Along the lower edge of the panels would be a set of water collection gutters so all of the rain that hit the panels could be collected for use in the gardening. I would grow a garden under the gantry and along the south side, this would provide some shade for the plants that need it and reduce the water requirements, it would also cool the underside of the panels making them more efficient. If I ever win the lottery I'll tell you how it worked out... ;)
 
PopPopT said:
My wife and I lived in an RV for a lot of years. And some of that time, the entire RV operated on a single 20 amp circuit. We learned quickly that, no we couldn't run everything at one time, but we really didn't do without a whole lot either. ...
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Our first house had two circuits. One was 220 for the stove, the other was 120 for the rest of the house. 100 KW was our normal usage. I made the mistake of bring the electrical up to code, 600 plus KW a month became the norm.
 
The Lazy L said:
600 plus KW a month became the norm.
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It can spoil us easily... cheap power. Our house was total electric when we bought it a couple of years ago. That's one thing I really do not like about it. Oh, it's cheap. Sometimes our electric bills in the the "shoulder" seasons (not too hot, not too cold) are something like $80/mo. So the incentive to add a bunch of solar panels isn't nearly as big as for someone who has huge electric bills. Still, I want to get a basic backup system beyond our generators. Plus, there are some other projects designed to take electricity, or at least the big users, out of the loop. I think the simplest was a piece of rope about 150 feet long that replaces our electric dryer. ;) Looking to see if I can find a bigger propane tank for a gas kitchen range, our small tank doesn't leave a lot of reserve. Looking at various kinds of wood stoves, too.

One step at a time...
 
PopPopT said:
What would that work out to, about 12kW of panels? I'm too lazy to look up actual numbers. That's a significant amount of power when the sun is shining.
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Yes, I was thinking about 5.5kw of normal load and having enough power to charge a set of batteries that could handle about a 4 day no/low solar event....
Like I said, dreaming...
 
UrbanHunter said:
Yes, I was thinking about 5.5kw of normal load and having enough power to charge a set of batteries that could handle about a 4 day no/low solar event....
Like I said, dreaming...
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As someone who's not actually lived with solar to any extent as an only source of power, I was curious about something. Hope I can ask the question correctly.

Many of my power needs aren't 24/7. They're just not. Some are quick, over and done with in minutes, i.e., heating something in the microwave. Sometimes that's only seconds, but it's a big power draw. Some things run intermittently, such as fridge/freezers but not non-stop. Stuff like lights aren't really used much in the daytime but if going with decent LED lights, they draw next to nothing.

So I guess what I'm getting at is, would a larger array and a smaller battery bank work for when you want more power available during the day but can shut things way down at night? A basic timer could keep refrigerators and freezers from running during at least most night time hours, when the doors are gonna stay closed anyway. Nobody runs the washing machine or the vacuum cleaner at night. Even the coffee maker could wait for daylight most of the time, but hey, the percolator wouldn't care if using a gas stove or even the woodstove.

I don't think I'd really want to shut everything completely down at night. But for the most part, I can see how running very minimally might work just fine and significantly reduce battery requirements, not because you don't use electricity, but because you don't use it as heavily when you're not producing it.

Did that make sense?

I get that it would leave one more open to needing a generator for extended cloudy times. It would probably happen with even a larger battery bank from time to time. Weather happens. But I'm also wondering whether daytime use of something like a mini split AC unit wouldn't be very possible for a small area when the sun is beating down in the hot summer. Couldn't run it at night but hopefully it cools off at night. And even a small electric water heater could retain enough heat to be useful from those bright sunny days when there is just extra juice there and no real place to go.

Anyway, it was just something I thought about. Am I nuts? Well, you don't really have to answer that, I know, I am. But maybe I'm missing something big in my thoughts. (?)
 
During the late fall to early spring is when you get the least from a solar power system. In mid winter daylight starts at about 9am and ends at about 3pm. That is six hours at about half power (less than that if cloudy, foggy or rain and snow). The six months of minimum power is when you need it the most. Fixing breakfast and dinner in the dark and pulling the maximum draw from your batteries without the ability to fully recharge. You need a supplemental power supply. A generator will cost you more in fuel than running grid power if it is available, if not then you need to allow for secondary heat and fuel for cooking. You don't need cooling so the refrigerator won't need much if it is placed where the outside air can be used.

All these things can be handled with a bit of thought and some work-arounds and modifying your use of power. It takes a lot of money to put a system together for a turnkey home that most folks are used to. There are new technologies coming but they are not available right now. Plan on changing the way you use energy if you are going off-grid or you will be disappointed.
 
PopPopT said:
As someone who's not actually lived with solar to any extent as an only source of power, I was curious about something. Hope I can ask the question correctly.

Many of my power needs aren't 24/7. They're just not. Some are quick, over and done with in minutes, i.e., heating something in the microwave. Sometimes that's only seconds, but it's a big power draw. Some things run intermittently, such as fridge/freezers but not non-stop. Stuff like lights aren't really used much in the daytime but if going with decent LED lights, they draw next to nothing.

So I guess what I'm getting at is, would a larger array and a smaller battery bank work for when you want more power available during the day but can shut things way down at night? A basic timer could keep refrigerators and freezers from running during at least most night time hours, when the doors are gonna stay closed anyway. Nobody runs the washing machine or the vacuum cleaner at night. Even the coffee maker could wait for daylight most of the time, but hey, the percolator wouldn't care if using a gas stove or even the woodstove.

I don't think I'd really want to shut everything completely down at night. But for the most part, I can see how running very minimally might work just fine and significantly reduce battery requirements, not because you don't use electricity, but because you don't use it as heavily when you're not producing it.

Did that make sense?

I get that it would leave one more open to needing a generator for extended cloudy times. It would probably happen with even a larger battery bank from time to time. Weather happens. But I'm also wondering whether daytime use of something like a mini split AC unit wouldn't be very possible for a small area when the sun is beating down in the hot summer. Couldn't run it at night but hopefully it cools off at night. And even a small electric water heater could retain enough heat to be useful from those bright sunny days when there is just extra juice there and no real place to go.

Anyway, it was just something I thought about. Am I nuts? Well, you don't really have to answer that, I know, I am. But maybe I'm missing something big in my thoughts. (?)
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Engineer775 has an energy playlist here.



He has other playlists found here

https://youtube.com/c/PracticalpreppersLLC
He does prepping projects for a living and is quite instructive. He has done solar powered minisplits solar powered pumps ...

We all have available the means to get a close idea of we really need. It is the electrical meter for your electrical service. Shut off all of your breakers and one at time test all your widgets like your microwave. Record what the meter was before you start the microwave and again after running it. Repeat that for everything in the house.

Then do the math to figure what a typical day would be. You could also check the meter in the morning on 2 consecutive days to get an average usage.

That will tell you what you will need for a day.

Then you can look at where you be storing that energy ie the batteries. Batteries are rated by their voltage and how many amps of current they can supply. Multiply the battery voltage by the amp hours to determine the watt hours from the battery.

No electrical devices are 100% efficient so you need to adjust the numbers to acount for heat loss etc.

Then you can look at the power source. Solar panels wind turbine hydro turbine to determine how much energy you can collect how fast for what period of time.

With the right charge controllers and enough solar energy you can run loads and charge batteries at the same time.

Ben
 
I believe the minimum grid supply is a 200 amp 240 volt system. That is 48KW supply. If you run electric heat that requires a 600 amp supply.
With a 6KW supply you will have to adjust your usage to match the supply. In this case no dryer and no AC. This is based on the maximum output of the solar panel and doesn't take into account for the 6 months of reduced power availability. During the winter you are going to have less than 3KW source so what will you be able to power with that and what will you have to do without?
 
SheepDog said:
I believe the minimum grid supply is a 200 amp 240 volt system. That is 48KW supply. If you run electric heat that requires a 600 amp supply.
With a 6KW supply you will have to adjust your usage to match the supply. In this case no dryer and no AC. This is based on the maximum output of the solar panel and doesn't take into account for the 6 months of reduced power availability. During the winter you are going to have less than 3KW source so what will you be able to power with that and what will you have to do without?
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600 amps?

Ben
 
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