Thermoelectric Power

Homesteading & Country Living Forum

Help Support Homesteading & Country Living Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I took this from Wikipedia: I always look for the flaws first:

Disadvantages of Stirling engines compared to internal combustion engines include:

  • Stirling engine designs require heat exchangers for heat input and for heat output, and these must contain the pressure of the working fluid, where the pressure is proportional to the engine power output. In addition, the expansion-side heat exchanger is often at very high temperature, so the materials must resist the corrosive effects of the heat source, and have low creep. Typically these material requirements substantially increase the cost of the engine. The materials and assembly costs for a high-temperature heat exchanger typically accounts for 40% of the total engine cost.[73]
  • All thermodynamic cycles require large temperature differentials for efficient operation. In an external combustion engine, the heater temperature always equals or exceeds the expansion temperature. This means that the metallurgical requirements for the heater material are very demanding. This is similar to a Gas turbine, but is in contrast to an Otto engine or Diesel engine, where the expansion temperature can far exceed the metallurgical limit of the engine materials, because the input heat source is not conducted through the engine, so engine materials operate closer to the average temperature of the working gas. The Stirling cycle is not actually achievable, the real cycle in Stirling machines is less efficient than the theoretical Stirling cycle, also the efficiency of the Stirling cycle is lower where the ambient temperatures are mild, while it would give its best results in a cool environment, such as northern countries' winters.
  • Dissipation of waste heat is especially complicated because the coolant temperature is kept as low as possible to maximize thermal efficiency. This increases the size of the radiators, which can make packaging difficult. Along with materials cost, this has been one of the factors limiting the adoption of Stirling engines as automotive prime movers. For other applications such as ship propulsion and stationary microgeneration systems using combined heat and power (CHP) high power density is not required.[40]
 
Off topic

@UrbanHunter or @Neb have either of you had any experience with sterling engines? Throughout this project I keep running up on them and they also have peaked my interest. My main point of curiosity is why everyone seems stuck on using that large moving displacer? I can see so many better options with todays tools and materials.
I have a kit waiting for the granddaughters.

20230122_155829_HDR.jpg


It has been 25 years since we studied the sterling engine in college. I would have Google to remind myself how it worked. A customer had one sitting on a big transformer as the heat source and the room was air conditioned so it ran forever.


Ben
 
Just went back through this thread because I knew my initial goals and my goals now have changed drastically. That's the way my life rolls. lmao But anyway since this is now really a two part project it's slowing things down some. But the research value should be worth it. Back to my beginning goal of just making a stove top generator, the unit I'm working on now will also or should also work just as well on a stove top as it will on the purpose built stove I'm making. The big difference in the stove I'm making is the battery effect it should have over a regular woodstove. But anyone who's handy with tools should be able to copy the module plate. My reason for switching to a dedicated stove out there was mainly to be able to use this as a year round power source if needed. I am also fairly certain I have a better way to cool a lot more modules out there than I could in here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neb
I took this from Wikipedia: I always look for the flaws first:

Disadvantages of Stirling engines compared to internal combustion engines include:

  • Stirling engine designs require heat exchangers for heat input and for heat output, and these must contain the pressure of the working fluid, where the pressure is proportional to the engine power output. In addition, the expansion-side heat exchanger is often at very high temperature, so the materials must resist the corrosive effects of the heat source, and have low creep. Typically these material requirements substantially increase the cost of the engine. The materials and assembly costs for a high-temperature heat exchanger typically accounts for 40% of the total engine cost.[73]
  • All thermodynamic cycles require large temperature differentials for efficient operation. In an external combustion engine, the heater temperature always equals or exceeds the expansion temperature. This means that the metallurgical requirements for the heater material are very demanding. This is similar to a Gas turbine, but is in contrast to an Otto engine or Diesel engine, where the expansion temperature can far exceed the metallurgical limit of the engine materials, because the input heat source is not conducted through the engine, so engine materials operate closer to the average temperature of the working gas. The Stirling cycle is not actually achievable, the real cycle in Stirling machines is less efficient than the theoretical Stirling cycle, also the efficiency of the Stirling cycle is lower where the ambient temperatures are mild, while it would give its best results in a cool environment, such as northern countries' winters.
  • Dissipation of waste heat is especially complicated because the coolant temperature is kept as low as possible to maximize thermal efficiency. This increases the size of the radiators, which can make packaging difficult. Along with materials cost, this has been one of the factors limiting the adoption of Stirling engines as automotive prime movers. For other applications such as ship propulsion and stationary microgeneration systems using combined heat and power (CHP) high power density is not required.[40]
You know I've gone back and read this like ten times and one point keeps sticking in my mind. That coupled with another recently realized point really add up in a big way. "stationary microgeneration systems using combined heat and power (CHP) high power density is not required.[" couple that with a mass of gravel, sand, concrete or what have you and the nearly 100% burn efficiency of a rocket type stove. Then bury X many feet of pex pipe below the frost line as the radiator. Personally I think under a greenhouse would be ideal. The other point that keeps coming to mind is the fact that if you're making power 24/7/365 you don't need to make a lot at any one time so it would be a very fuel efficient system.
 
Last edited:
5 you don't need to make a lot at any one time so it would be a very fuel efficient system.

The problem is storage. It's always the problem. There are a ton of ways to make low levels of cheap energy, but its storing it up to levels you can actually use it thats hard.....really hard.
 
The problem is storage. It's always the problem. There are a ton of ways to make low levels of cheap energy, but its storing it up to levels you can actually use it thats hard.....really hard.
Yep I know after 15 years living off grid and needing yet another set of batteries at this point. Which is one of the main reasons I started looking in to using stored heat as a battery.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neb
Realized yesterday I'm out of a very important item that I have to have before I can put this all together. So unfortunately I'll have to wait till payday next month before I can order that. In the mean time I'll keep working on what I can but this is going to add another couple weeks to the building process.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neb
Yep I know after 15 years living off grid and needing yet another set of batteries at this point. Which is one of the main reasons I started looking in to using stored heat as a battery.

Doesn't actually solve the problem though....heat isn't any easier to store than other forms of energy. Thermodynamics is a real b*tch.
 
Nice bright sunny and WINDY again. They claim its 10-15 mph more like 20-35 looks like cutting metal and welding are on hold again. Grrrrrrrrr
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neb
Wind be damned I got stuff to do so I did. lol

Tried out one of those diamond cut off wheels on the angle grinder today. Gotta say so far I love it.

Cord broke again on the corded grinder and I already killed all four M18 batteries.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neb
Since we haven't seen any sketches yet...

We hace wait until the project is complete to find out what is the project. ;)

Ben
Mmm. I may understand the intent; or not. Right now I get the feeling that I won't understand the process. I do hope it involves releasing stored energy, not something, um, nuclear.
 
Mmm. I may understand the intent; or not. Right now I get the feeling that I won't understand the process. I do hope it involves releasing stored energy, not something, um, nuclear.
I think it will an electrical generation system that combine the efficient burning of a rocket stove with thermoelectric cells to convert heat flux to electricity.

No moving parts and runs forever as long as there is duel to burn and the cold side can stay cold.

Ben
 
That's the idea Ben with a twist or two thrown in for good measure. Just remember the prototype isn't going to have all the bells & whistles like a full size unit would. Goal is to only need to burn a fire once a day. But this build is a proof of concept so it won't have the size or capacity for that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neb
Made slow yet steady progress the last two days. Man I am sure putting in the time, hope it isn't being wasted!
 
Raining now and has been for awhile worse they say there's 4 or 5 more days of the same. Puts a dead stop on progress.
 
Made slow yet steady progress the last two days. Man I am sure putting in the time, hope it isn't being wasted!
I just want to say thanks for putting in the effort because I had thought of a system like you are experimenting with, I figured since those stove fans turn fair sized blades, the electricity generated by the stove heat could be configured to charge batteries, I just didn't know if it would be worth the effort and money spent and we already have a large amount of money into our solar backup system. On the other hand our wood stove generates an excess of heat that perhaps could be used to generate electricity, it seems a shame to waste that energy, so I appreciate that you have taken it upon yourself to look into this.
 
Back to the house all 5 batteries are DEAD! Weather guessers could NOT have been more wrong about today's weather. First it didn't rain at all after daybreak second the sunny blue sky showed up about 1:30pm and the rest of the day was perfect work outdoors in short sleeves weather. It's 58f as I type. I went and cut the last of the useful bit's of frame away from the rest and got it back to the work area. That was after I got a few more pieces welded together and a few others cut. That's when I realized I needed more material. Thank the lord I had the junk to play with otherwise it would have been no go for this project, I can't even imagine the cost of getting that much new metal out there these days.

I suddenly started second guessing my design last night for whatever reason. I guess I'm thinking someone would have already done it if it would actually work. IDK! But I'm going to complete it regardless..... Lord knows I've wasted more time and money in worse pursuits! lol
 
Considering I haven't even tested the others yet I just did a dumb thing and ordered 20 more of these. (5) Kyocera Thermoelectric Cooling Module Part #12016896A High-end Applications | eBay

I "think" they should perform better than the generic Tec1-12706. Hope I'm not wrong, but I've always had exceptional service from Kyocera products.

I decided to hold off on the high temp insulation for now after finding out it only has an insulation rating of R5. I'm more worried about the seller running out of those high end modules than I am about getting insulation inside the box. lol Then after I ordered I found out he has a few hundred more. Hopefully by next month I'll have these up and running and know if I want to try and get more or not...

I'm shooting for 300 watts peak power. If and I know that's a big if this thing works like I want it to then it should give us the ability to live a lot more normal life power wise and take the constant worry of do we have enough power off my mind. It will be especially nice if it actually will power through the night being burned only once in the evenings.

Looks like I might get to work on this project for an hour or so this afternoon if the wind slows down a little and the temperature holds decent.
 
Alright I think I can see the end of the stove build itself slowly crawling in sight. Once I finish it then I start building the outer case or box whatever you want to call it where all the mass gets held. I can't wait to see how much heat this thing can pull out of the fire before the gasses reach the chimney or how much heat it can hold for how long. I just hope to heck I haven't been wrong in my thinking. In all my searching I can't find where anyone has built anything like this design, maybe because it's so labor intensive or maybe just because it's stupid and won't work! Be my luck. lol
 
Alright I think I can see the end of the stove build itself slowly crawling in sight. Once I finish it then I start building the outer case or box whatever you want to call it where all the mass gets held. I can't wait to see how much heat this thing can pull out of the fire before the gasses reach the chimney or how much heat it can hold for how long. I just hope to heck I haven't been wrong in my thinking. In all my searching I can't find where anyone has built anything like this design, maybe because it's so labor intensive or maybe just because it's stupid and won't work! Be my luck. lol
Images would help me follow...

Ben
 
Images would help me follow...

Ben
I know but for now I'm keeping the stove design under my hat, I don't even have a picture. Sorry, I will show the electronics and stove when I get them together, along with the lifting devise. I'll also still try to upload a video of the first time I fire the stove.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Neb
OH CHIT ! My daughter and I fouled up bigtime. I kept bugging her to clean up all her wrappers off the table so she grabbed the bag my high dollar modules were in and filled it full of trash. I took it and burned it not realizing until after the fact. So now I have toasted modules and am going to have to wait to replace them. This puts a huge crimp in my plans! Needless to say they did not withstand a trip through the burn barrel! I found what was left of them....
 
OH CHIT ! My daughter and I fouled up bigtime. I kept bugging her to clean up all her wrappers off the table so she grabbed the bag my high dollar modules were in and filled it full of trash. I took it and burned it not realizing until after the fact. So now I have toasted modules and am going to have to wait to replace them. This puts a huge crimp in my plans! Needless to say they did not withstand a trip through the burn barrel! I found what was left of them....
Can we see images off the carnage?

The Princess would be sooo pissed if that happened here and it would definitely be my fault.

Ben
 

Latest posts

Back
Top