Understanding Narcissism and Narcissists

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Weedygarden

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In the old place, I started a thread about narcissism, and I know that some people had a realization about people in their lives being narcissists. Narcissism is very complex and I plan on eventually talking about many aspects of it. I am no psychologist or trained therapist. I do have some hours in psychology from college, and I have read a lot about narcissists and narcissism. I am far from an expert, but I do have some experience with narcissists.

We all know narcissists. Does it matter if someone we know is a narcissist? It matters if they attack you, seek to hurt you, seek to damage your relationships with others.

Why do I care about narcissism? Because it took me 50 + years of my life to realize that I come from a family of narcissists. My grandmother, some aunts and uncles, some cousins and two of my siblings are narcissists.

There are strategies for dealing with narcissists, depending on your goal for your relationship with them. I belong to a few groups about narcissism. The most active group I belong to is about narcissistic mothers. While men can be narcissists, it is the narcissistic mother (NM) who is most known about. Narcissistic women in general are very competitive. They go after other women that they see as a threat to their perceived status. Narcissistic women flirt, connive, and reel in men for their own benefit. They are slick, manipulative, duplicitous, and have no feelings or concerns about those they engage with.

Narcissists lack empathy. They are critical, cruel, and hateful to their perceived threats. They have two emotions that they work: hero or victim. Narcissists never see themselves as the villain, ever. As a result of that, they are incapable of apologizing. I have seen countless young women say that they will resume their relationship with their mother when she apologizes for stealing the show at their wedding, trying to take their children from them, and other horrible behavior. Really, the best thing in these situations is to go no contact. It is the best strategy.

The thing about narcissists is that it is almost impossible for them to change. They love one person and that is themselves. They are incapable of loving others. They are very capable of cruelty to others.

There are seven types of narcissism, and I am not as knowledgeable about them. 1. The Classic Narcissist, 2. The Seductive Narcissist, 3. The Vulnerable Narcissist, 4. The Covert Narcissist, 5. The Grandiose Narcissist 6. The Malignant Narcissist, and 7. The Vindictive Narcissist.

The VA considers narcissism a level B mental illness. It is not such a serious diagnosis that a person can be admitted to a facility for treatment such as other more serious mental illnesses.

The internet has much information about narcissism. I have books about it and one of the best that I have is, "The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist. Recognizing the Traits and Finding Healing After Hidden Emotional and Psychological Abuse," by Debbie Mirza.

If you are in this group, know that I am aware of two narcissists, one male, one female. There are likely more. This is not about identifying or calling them out. This is to help all of us become more psychologically prepared. Psychological defense is important, imho.

More later!
 
This list is from the book I mentioned earlier, and this list is different than the earlier list, but you can understand that there are different types and different ways of being.

"There are several types of narcissists. Some are classified as overt, covert, somatic, cerebral, parasitic, and boomerang. If you search for types of narcissists on the Internet, you will find countless articles listing many types and subtypes. All narcissists have the same core traits. The official list of these traits is found in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV) by which psychiatric disorders are categorized. Mental health professionals use this manual when diagnosing patients.

A patient must have at least 5 of the following traits to be diagnosed as having Narcissistic Personality Disorder, according to DSM-IV:

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g. exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
3. Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
4. Requires excessive admiration.
5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e. unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.
6. Is interpersonally exploitive, i.e. takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings or needs of others.
8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
 
Oh man. My ex MIL showed a lot of narcissistic behavior. Mental issues runs deep in her family too. As a result, although I don't think my ex wife was exactly a narcissist, she showed the behaviors because she had learned them at home. Life events have given her a new perspective now, and after meeting Jesus she has made some positive changes.

I think most of us are narcissistic to a degree. I mean, who doesn't like to think of themselves as being something more than they really are? To my mind the problem is when one starts demanding of others to accept the fantasy world he or she has created...
 
I became aware of narcissism when a former colleague was arrested for offending children. He had over 25 victims, many of whom I knew and some being former students of mine.

Most, if not all, sex offenders are narcissists, however, not all narcissists are sex offenders.
 
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I became aware of narcissism when a former colleague was arrested for offending children. He had over 25 victims, many of whom I knew and some being former students of mine.

Most, if not all, sex offenders are narcissists, however, not all narcissists are sex offenders.
I never thought about narcissist hurting anyone other than themselves

Ben
 
I never thought about narcissist hurting anyone other than themselves

Ben
They do hurt themselves, but they will go after certain people. A competitive narcissist wants to knock others out of the way that they perceive as a threat. They will lie, manipulate, insult, defame, and much more, whatever it takes hurt their scapegoats or those whom threaten them by being more attractive, eloquent, accomplished or other.

A narcissistic woman in a work situation will go after the women they perceive as more successful, more competent, more attractive, whatever the threat. I have seen this. If there are several women that are threatening, they will go after all of them. It may be one at a time. Sometimes the narcissist is hurt in the process, but it is of their own doing.

Another typical narc behavior is that they are good friends with the boss and they make sure they report what others say about the boss that is not in a positive light. They also like to find the top dog and introduce themselves. My narc brother seeks out the top ranking person in a room. When there was a senator, he went to go chat with him. Narcs are after fame and wealth in their friends and acquaintances, because they think it makes them look better by association.
 
They do hurt themselves, but they will go after certain people. A competitive narcissist wants to knock others out of the way that they perceive as a threat. They will lie, manipulate, insult, defame, and much more, whatever it takes hurt their scapegoats or those whom threaten them by being more attractive, eloquent, accomplished or other.

A narcissistic woman in a work situation will go after the women they perceive as more successful, more competent, more attractive, whatever the threat. I have seen this. If there are several women that are threatening, they will go after all of them. It may be one at a time. Sometimes the narcissist is hurt in the process, but it is of their own doing.

Another typical narc behavior is that they are good friends with the boss and they make sure they report what others say about the boss that is not in a positive light. They also like to find the top dog and introduce themselves. My narc brother seeks out the top ranking person in a room. When there was a senator, he went to go chat with him. Narcs are after fame and wealth in their friends and acquaintances, because they think it makes them look better by association.
You make me wonder if i have ever encoutered a narcissist... aside from possibly myself...

Ben
 
Nah. You don't go after people. A narc will also turn people against each other, or try to. But they keep a useful idiot around to do their bidding. My mom, for instance, will make up junk and try to get myself and two of my sisters to fight. She will swear that one of them said something about the other, just to get something started. But all three of us know that game, so it doesn't work. The hard part now, is figuring out if she's being mean on purpose or is it her dementia talking.
 
Nah. You don't go after people. A narc will also turn people against each other, or try to. But they keep a useful idiot around to do their bidding. My mom, for instance, will make up junk and try to get myself and two of my sisters to fight. She will swear that one of them said something about the other, just to get something started. But all three of us know that game, so it doesn't work. The hard part now, is figuring out if she's being mean on purpose or is it her dementia talking.
Thanks

My X has some of those attributes but I suspect she is more a a psychopath inventing her own reality..

She irritates my eldest granddaughter.

Ben
 
Some narcs are also psychopaths. They do invent their own reality. And they never, never apologize. They will wait it out and not say sorry. Even if they know they've wronged you. And they will say awful lies behind your back to people that are close to you. That is the worst. I've had many phone calls from my cousin that was so upset about things my mom's said to other people about me that aren't true. The stories get really out of hand. As far as being irritated by a narc, my method is to walk away. Ignore.
 
Walking away is a good way to deal with it. Some people end up going no contact. I have read about people who have been no contact with their parents for years, more than a decade. I am no contact with a brother and sister. They have been cruel my whole life, even causing injury that required medical attention.
 
There are three phases of relationships with narcs:
1. Love bombing
2. devaluing
3. The discard

When a relationship with a narc begins, there is the love bombing phase. Think of all the emoji's, hugs, outward behavior to gain the trust. Generally, but not always, this last six months to a year, but it can be different for each situation.

They are deliberate in learning the insecurities and weakness, and initially love on people in those areas with compliments. Later, those same insecurities will be used against their targeted people.

Later, you are devalued with remarks and actions that make you feel bad. They say things to make their significant other feel bad about themselves. Often, what they say is not even true in this phase.

The discard: in this phase, everything that they know about you is used against you. They twist things and make their former significant other look as bad as possible, while the narc plays the victim. In relationships, a new person is often found before the discard takes place. In narcissistic relationships, this is a very confusing time for the true victim, the discarded person. Often, the replacement is thrown in the discards face.
 
I cannot begin to tell you how much this thread means to me. To hear my own challenges being faced by others.

I have been working on forgiving my mother (deceased), and am estranged from my siblings. We were all raised to disdain each other in my mother's efforts to manipulate us, and I don't think that childhood imprint will ever change. It's been a long, long road...
 
I get that goshengirl. My mom is still living, and still a pain in the butt. I've learned to deal with her when I'm feeling strong, not let her know much about what goes on with me and our family so she won't use it against me. My sisters and I don't believe all the junk she says to each of us, because it's all to get us mad at each other. Not unusual to get or send a text saying: guess what mom said now.
My mom is so obsessed with her "stuff" at the moment, that I don't want to look at any of it when she dies. She hates men, always has, gone through three husbands throughout her life. I am in charge of her medical, and she is lucky I have a kind heart, and do look out for her best interests. Another sis looks out for her financially, but it's out there for all of us to see. The black sheep sis is not allowed anything. But we blacksheeped her. Four years ago, she stuck mom in a dementia house after having her drugged up. Mom didn't have dementia at the time, but did have lots of money, so that sis was planning on taking guardianship and taking it all. I get her frustration, but that's not ok to try to kill her. So husband and I rescued her, brought her to our home (she hated that), and now she has her own apartment in assisted living, about 15 miles from us. She calls daily. But I choose when to see her, so that part's not bad. She does drive the staff at Mennonite Manor nuts.
Check out the Surviving Narciss youtube. The short topics are really helpful.
 
There are three phases of relationships with narcs:
1. Love bombing
2. devaluing
3. The discard

When a relationship with a narc begins, there is the love bombing phase. Think of all the emoji's, hugs, outward behavior to gain the trust. Generally, but not always, this last six months to a year, but it can be different for each situation.

They are deliberate in learning the insecurities and weakness, and initially love on people in those areas with compliments. Later, those same insecurities will be used against their targeted people.

Later, you are devalued with remarks and actions that make you feel bad. They say things to make their significant other feel bad about themselves. Often, what they say is not even true in this phase.

The discard: in this phase, everything that they know about you is used against you. They twist things and make their former significant other look as bad as possible, while the narc plays the victim. In relationships, a new person is often found before the discard takes place. In narcissistic relationships, this is a very confusing time for the true victim, the discarded person. Often, the replacement is thrown in the discards face.
Well maybe the X is a narcissist.

If I was in a crowd and someone yelled "arsehole" I would turn around since she called me that so often.

Ben
 
Well maybe the X is a narcissist.
If I was in a crowd and someone yelled "arsehole" I would turn around since she called me that so often.
Ben

My first response to that was to laugh. But that isn't funny at all, is it? I'm sorry.
For the record, you are neither a narcissist nor an arsehole. ;)
 
I cannot begin to tell you how much this thread means to me. To hear my own challenges being faced by others.

I have been working on forgiving my mother (deceased), and am estranged from my siblings. We were all raised to disdain each other in my mother's efforts to manipulate us, and I don't think that childhood imprint will ever change. It's been a long, long road...
I do not know about your belief system, and I apologize if this sounds preachy. I too found it very difficult to forgive people such as my alcoholic father who stole my babysitting money to drink, and the cruel narcs, and all the nasty people we meet in life. I read a book about forgiveness, from a Christian perspective. It involves praying and asking God to help us forgive those who have offended us, for we cannot truly forgive without his help. It was the best thing ever for me and forgiveness. I have been doing that for an offender here!
 
I agree, that's the best way to forgive, and forgiveness is necessary if you want to stay sane. Sounds like your ex was a narc, Ben, and now you've done better! My mom likes to tell people I'm fat and dress funny. She is 88 and likes to dress like a hoochy mama. I've had to get her to stop answering her apartment door at the Mennonite Manor wearing her short leopard print nightgown. No one needs to see that. She has hounded me to take her out to find cut off jean shorts for summerwear. This is not ok. My sis and I sing the Catwalk song and make up things for her and just crack up....I'm too sexy for the manor, too sexy for the old people.....
She loves strutting down the hallway where she lives. And she makes mean faces at any other lady that she thinks is trying to be prettier than her. Sometimes it's better to laugh at this stuff than let it get to you. Narcs try so hard to be irritating.
 
I agree, that's the best way to forgive, and forgiveness is necessary if you want to stay sane. Sounds like your ex was a narc, Ben, and now you've done better! My mom likes to tell people I'm fat and dress funny. She is 88 and likes to dress like a hoochy mama. I've had to get her to stop answering her apartment door at the Mennonite Manor wearing her short leopard print nightgown. No one needs to see that. She has hounded me to take her out to find cut off jean shorts for summerwear. This is not ok. My sis and I sing the Catwalk song and make up things for her and just crack up....I'm too sexy for the manor, too sexy for the old people.....
She loves strutting down the hallway where she lives. And she makes mean faces at any other lady that she thinks is trying to be prettier than her. Sometimes it's better to laugh at this stuff than let it get to you. Narcs try so hard to be irritating.
I thought I remembered that you said your mom is threatened by and dislikes women that she perceives as more attractive than she is, and therefore, a threat.
 
Narcissistic Families

The dynamics in narcissistic families are all over the map.

Both parents can be narcs, or one or the other. Often when one parent is a narcissist, the other parent enables the behavior and attitudes and is called an enabler. The children in narcissistic families can be treated very differently by the parents. There are Golden Children (GC) and there are scapegoats (SG). These roles are determined by the parents and it is apparent by how they are treated. It is not 100%, but often the GC are males and the SG are females. In some of the groups I am in, there are male scapegoats, but it is a very low percentage. Narcissistic mothers (NM) often favor males. This was very true for my N Grandmother. I have had other people tell me so, that she really favored her sons and grandsons. I have told this before, but Saturdays, while living with Narc Grandmother were a verification of this. Boys had little responsibility or requirements. They were allowed to watch cartoons, play inside or out, participate in sports, while the girls did laundry for 7, hanging it on the line year round, no matter the weather, cleaned the whole house, including the boys rooms, ironed, baking, etc. There were no breaks for me on Saturday, except to eat. Meanwhile, there were able bodied boys having a good time all day.

In these dynamics, there are some situations where the parents can be alcoholics or into drugs. There are some horrific stories about the children who grew up in these situations. One woman in one of my groups had a sister who disappeared and has never been found. Missing girl was around 12 to 14 at the time she disappeared. Woman is eloquent and has been writing a book about searching for her sister. Mother never reported the girl missing. Mother tried to prostitute her daughters for financial reasons. The woman's pen name is Sugar Lakey, not her real name. I have been waiting to read the complete story about her sister, Jolene, although she has written parts of it in detail in the group. She does an annual walk for her sister, to remember her and has invited the members of the group to do something at the same time, to keep the memory of Jolene.

I read another book last year about a NM who eventually murdered a nephew. "If You Tell," by Gregg Olsen is a relatively easy read. Truly, this was a horrific story, told by the daughter who survived. I was enthralled by this story.

Another book about NM is "A Child Called It." It is a very easy read and I first became familiar with it from a 3rd grade student who was reading. There are a couple other books written by the same man, Dave Pelzer. This was another extreme narcissistic mother who banned her son to sleep in the basement of the house, to sleep on the concrete floor, with a lack of adequate covers. He was also not allowed to eat at the family dinner table, and most of his food for a while was what he could find in the garbage or steal at school. No doubt that Dave Pelzer was the scapegoat.

Facebook has some great groups for people who are healing from NM's, Narc siblings, and narc families. There are also groups for people who are married to narcs. What is great about the groups is the opportunity to help others see their situations and to offer insight and suggestions. I would think that most abusive relationships involve a narcissist.
 
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Flying Monkeys

I have had a few flying monkeys approach me in my life. Sad that people allow themselves to be manipulated by a narc and feel the need to go after the true victim of narcissistic abuse to enable the narcissist. Many, many years ago, I made a decision not to get in the middle of arguments or conflicts. I decided I would not choose sides or run back and forth between people. If I had strong feelings one way or another, it was rare and based in my own observation and experience with the involved parties, not the backstabbing gossip of one of the parties. This exists! It is real!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_monkeys_(popular_psychology)
Flying monkeys[1] is a term used in popular psychology, mainly in the context of narcissistic abuse,[2] to describe people who act on behalf of a narcissist towards a third party, usually for an abusive purpose (e.g. a smear campaign).[3][4] The phrase has also been used to refer to people who act on behalf of a psychopath, for a similar purpose.[5][6] The term is not formally used in medical practice or teaching. The term is from the winged monkeys used by the Wicked Witch of the West in the book The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (and the subsequent films based on it) to carry out evil deeds on her behalf.[6][7] Abuse by proxy (or proxy abuse) is a closely related or synonymous concept.[3][8]
 
I've noticed narcs get mad when they don't have any flying monkeys around them anymore. Sometimes it happens when they get old, like my mom. They seem to get depressed. Oh well.
My sis from Florida just texted me and will be down to visit next month. She's staying with us instead of mom so she doesn't go nuts. We are both wise to her ways, and may have some fun with it all. Mom will pull out all stops to start something, though.
 
A lot of positions of power will have narcissist. Some common places to find them are bosses, car salesmen, police, volunteer fire fighters and other volunteer jobs, religious leaders, shrinks.
Obviously not everyone in these areas are but it draws them to it. They either like the power or like the praise for doing it.

I know of several people who have narcissistic tendencies. If you don't know the signs you won't know something is up till you try to cut them out of your life or stop talking to them.

Cold turkey is the only way to end a relationship or some times friendship. Expect the smear campaign to follow. YouTube has many GREAT resources to learn from also.

If you think you are a narcissist and need to see a shrink to help you with it....you most likely NOT one.
 
A lot of positions of power will have narcissist. Some common places to find them are bosses, car salesmen, police, volunteer fire fighters and other volunteer jobs, religious leaders, shrinks.
Obviously not everyone in these areas are but it draws them to it. They either like the power or like the praise for doing it.

I know of several people who have narcissistic tendencies. If you don't know the signs you won't know something is up till you try to cut them out of your life or stop talking to them.

Cold turkey is the only way to end a relationship or some times friendship. Expect the smear campaign to follow. YouTube has many GREAT resources to learn from also.

If you think you are a narcissist and need to see a shrink to help you with it....you most likely NOT one.
Absolutely the truth! They are usually people of POWER! Probably many Senators and other politicians in Washington, DC are narcs. And then there are the people who always want to buddy up to the boss and the people of power, the brown nosers. Many of them are narcs as well.
 
Absolutely the truth! They are usually people of POWER! Probably many Senators and other politicians in Washington, DC are narcs. And then there are the people who always want to buddy up to the boss and the people of power, the brown nosers. Many of them are narcs as well.
Yes exactly or at least the ones who want to be the right hand man are the narcissist supply. "Yes boss you're doing a great job"
 

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