Understanding Narcissism and Narcissists

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Weedygarden said:
I believe that it is a form of mental illness that affects their behavior. People are institutionalized for Class A mental illnesses, but narcissism is considered a Class B mental illness, and narcs are not institutionalized. The interesting thing relative to this is that the VA keeps track of those who are narcs, of course, that are diagnosed as such. People who are arrested for sexual abuse, such as pedophiles, go through treatment, and in the process, are evaluated for narcissism. Most sex offenders are narcs.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320508

Cluster B personality disorders affect a person’s emotions and behaviors, leading to actions that others tend to consider dramatic, overly emotional, or erratic.
A personality disorder is a mental health condition that affects the ways that a person thinks, behaves, and relates to others.

These disorders can lead to significant distress and, in many cases, harmful coping strategies. People with cluster B disorders typically have trouble regulating their emotions and struggle to maintain relationships.

The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) suggest that around 9.1%Trusted Source of people in the United States meet the criteria for a personality disorder.

There are four types of cluster B personality disorders, each with a different set of diagnostic criteria and treatments:

  • antisocial personality disorder
  • borderline personality disorder
  • histrionic personality disorder
  • narcissistic personality disorder
This article explores these types, including their symptoms and treatment options.

(more to the article)
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Thank you!
 
Pearl said:
I don't mean to come off as critical of my MIL, not trying to be mean! I think if she has an illness she can't change! ??????
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Pearl, most women, girls, are raised to be nice. For those of us who were told to "Be nice," sometimes telling the truth seems to be unkind or mean. You are not in her face telling her about herself. You are trying to gain understanding. No, narcissists really cannot change. They may seek counseling, but not likely, because they see themselves as wonderful or perfect. They may try to change their behavior if they become aware of who and what they are, but deep down, feelings, emotions, caring are just not in them.
 
Weedygarden said:
Pearl, most women, girls, are raised to be nice. For those of us who were told to "Be nice," sometimes telling the truth seems to be unkind or mean. You are not in her face telling her about herself. You are trying to gain understanding. No, narcissists really cannot change. They may seek counseling, but not likely, because they see themselves as wonderful or perfect. They may try to change their behavior if they become aware of who and what they are, but deep down, feelings, emotions, caring are just not in them.
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This has been so enlightening!! It's like a weight being lifted, just to understand her and seeing WHY she acts the way she does! It's like, I don't dislike her, I SEE now!!
 
I have this friend, the only RL one I have that's still among the living in fact, he has to have the best EVERYTHING. One guy lives in a seventeen room house, has 3 sports cars, two trucks, a crotch rocket, a collection of classic firearms to die for, four ex wives, and nothing to talk about but all of the above, and if something he has isn't the best, he'll go make it the best. dude drives me nuts sometimes. good thing I'm not big on talking much.
 
Weedygarden said:
Narcs want to be at the top, the bosses, and in charge. They have been known to take other people out in the process.
BTW, good to see you! I don't remember when you were last on.
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It’s good to be back, I missed y’all! Life has been crazy busy the last few years. Hopefully it’s finally settling down some.
 
I was just joking! Common and someone said it to me, here. Nope, not a joke. Just back peddling.
Gaslight check list.jpg
 
Pearl said:
THAT IS my MIL!! WOW! When she says things like, " that never happened", or the kids always made things up", it always amazes me that she truly believed what she was saying! Like she is THE only one that matters or is right!
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Someone points out the truth, and a narcissist cannot stand anything that does not make them look wonderful.
 
I have a perfect example of my mother’s behavior. I received a text from my aunt that my uncle who has Parkinson’s passed out and have to go to hospital and spend the night. His blood pressure bottomed out. I told my mother and she said well I guess she knows how it feels now. Second question was did she say why she hasn’t called me? This is her sisters husband. I was just in shock she could be so cold. Don’t know why after 65 years of it I should be accustomed to it.
 
A week ago I sent my mother and stepdad a large order off Amazon of snack type stuff. Hormel completes, beef stew, their favorite candy, cookies, chips, peanut butter crackers. WhenI called to see if they received it she said yes. It is mostly stuff he likes. Not thank you. I am so grateful that I am her polar opposite!
 
Amish Heart said:
I used to hear, "I said no such of a thing!". Funny, though, mom's last marriage, the guy and her would yell that at each other.
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There's a problem with that though - I've been accused of saying things I didn't say, and when I said "I never said that", then I was the narcissist. It's a mean game to play...
 
Amish Heart said:
Yep, it can go both ways! I remember mom told her doc that I scream at her on the phone and that depresses her. Right in front of me. I don't raise my voice, and wouldn't raise my voice to mom.
Narcs lie.
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They lie, make stuff up so that they look like the victims, when in actuality they are the villains. It really makes them angry when they get told about who they really are, don't they Amish? You had it happen in a PM here, when you called someone on their stuff. But we are a clique, ganging up on people! I told a family member about what I knew, and it was true. The raging response is unforgettable. Now if I had told this person what a victim she was, she would have been thrilled.
 
I've told in the past that I belong to groups about narcissism, and there are thousands of people in these groups. People tell their stories, ask for ideas and suggestions, and encourage each other. Sometimes the stories are so interesting, so telling, imho. This is a story I just read.

"My wife and I are private people by nature. We avoid drama especially with outside parties, both because it's not productive and also because we both had pretty tumultuous childhoods. Until very recently I didn't even know there was a name for what I dealt with until she stumbled across a psychiatrist on YouTube describing narcissism. The amount of boxes being checked by what I heard blew us away.
That brought me to this group. And because I am anti drama, I've never really dumped out my story to anybody. So I hope you'll humor this very long post and maybe find some solace or perhaps inspiration, or maybe just a modicum of comfort that you are not alone and you are fighting the good fight.
My NM left our family for another man when I was four years old. I have no fully fleshed out memories of my parents being together, just flashes. My entire childhood was spent dealing with all the classic tactics, but on a young person who knew it was all wrong, somehow, but didn't know how to categorize or label it. My mother would blame my dad for my distance incessantly, even as that blame cast on the only stable role model in my life was obviously pushing me further and further away. My dad for his part withheld all the really bad details of their divorce until I was in my late teens. As a matter of fact, my dad dutifully implored me to try to make a relationship work with her despite the havoc she wreaked upon his life and our family. My dad to me meant stability, security, safety, wisdom, and care. As I entered my preteen years and my interest in sports began to fully take off, I began to openly rebel (not in my character) at the custody situation as it was impacting my sports activities (she did not live nearby, or really participate in them, unless it was convenient for her). So when it was "her" weekend, for a short period of time, I would potentially miss games. That added with the stark contrast of "personhood" between her and my father pushed me in a position of strong resentment towards her.
I must have made it clear at some point I was upset about the situation because she eventually relented whenever I had games. But, with this, her blame focus shifted from my father to me. And a whole new world of manipulation opened up to me, which up until that point my dad had absorbed and shielded me from. She used everybody - aunts, uncles, grandparents, my siblings (some of them narcs themselves) - to apply pressure to me, guilt me, ridicule me, my beliefs, my personality. But, something in me was strong enough to be aware of it, and know it was wrong. And I continued to distance myself from her more and more.
By high school I no longer cared about my mom. I didn't care what she wanted, I didn't care what she said about me, I didn't care what her family said about me, even what my siblings had to say about the situation. My faith assisted me during this time, as well as the fact that my dad's labor in raising me was beginning to bear fruit: I was starting to be able to compare my trajectory against those of my cousins of similar age who were wrapped up in the nasty vortex of her family. The aunts and uncles who dismissed and ridiculed me now had children performing poorly in school, getting arrested, using. This validated and fueled me.
Though the relationship had been essentially non existent for years by the time I was 24 years old, it was on July 14th of 2012 that I finally let my mom have a complete and full dose of truth and completely cut her off. I owed a small debt to her and I literally emptied my savings and sent her my tax refund to get rid of it in a matter of days just to be done with her, to have no connection whatsoever, even though it financially impaired me to do so. We saw each other at my niece's birthday party a few months later, where she very performatively left a box of her memories of me next to my car. She then attempted to have my sister take Christmas presents to me that year (textbook) despite my loud and vehement opposition to this, and when my sister refused to take them back, I made it clear they were going in the garbage. I wouldn't accept any value or gift from her at all. I wouldn't return the gifts because then I'm still receiving something from her. And I was forced to make this all known because I wanted it to STOP. So you can imagine the crap storm that followed this.
The next time we saw each other was at my sister's wedding in 2014, where she completely, deliberately, and awkwardly ignored me even as I briefly tried to be cordial for my sister's sake, and despite the previous two years being littered with Facebook messages, calls, and other assorted pressure from her and other family members to "stop hurting her". Then, when my first child was born in 2017, she had the gall to send gifts for him to our house, once again, with my sister.
My wife, who I didn't meet until 2015 after most of this had transpired, always supported me, but never met or saw my mother. So, because we were trying to elevate each other, she suggested that we go to a niece's birthday party in late 2018 that we knew she would be at. The plan was just to be there. We were not going to allow her to see our son or hold him, and we preferred to not talk to her at all. It was a test out to see if the most rudimentary boundary could be respected. It was not. As soon as we arrived she theatrically ran to the bathroom and was presumably crying inconsolably, taking my sister (whose daughter the party was for) in there with her, and having me and my wife both under tremendous pressure for the rest of the party to try to speak with her. 20 minutes after we arrived I told my wife we were never doing this again, and she agreed. I told my siblings we wouldn't be at any events she was at in the future, and that was the last time I saw my mother. She appeared to get the message and I did get a message from an aunt in 2019 on Facebook with more guilt and manipulation, but I shut it down completely and told her to relay to whoever needed to hear it that I didn't want to be contacted regarding her again. I guess that was all they had to contact me about because I haven't heard from any of them since.
Unfortunately if you are the child of a narc parent you know there isn't a happy ending beyond being rid of them, which can hardly be categorized as truly happy. There is a hole in each of us where an unconditionally loving parent should have been, and we are all damaged or incomplete because of it. Because I haven't really known anything different, I don't really notice the burden I carry, but I know it's there. When I lack tenderness with my children, which a mother teaches. My complete distrust of people in general, based on a fear of abandonment. My reflex of keeping people at a distance because of the same. My callous nature when it comes to conflict, which was conditioned over time after being ignored for many years by many people. It took a long time for me to become aware of these faults, and I am accountable for them and work at them constantly, but I know what the proximate cause is. It's all we can do to remove the poison and try to piece together an antidote every single day.
Hang in there. Take whatever joy you can in the blessings you have and never stop working on yourself. Break the pattern with your children. Close the chapter for you and those you're responsible for."
 
When my grandmother was in the nursing home she told the social worker the reason she was so depressed was that her 6 children didn’t come see her often enough. So the lady called my aunt. My aunt told her the cold hard facts. My grandmother never told her kids she loved them. More like she told all of them she wished they were never born. Told them they were ugly and stupid. This is the mother of my narc mom. I was the oldest granddaughter and I had a completely different relationship with my grandmother. It took years for all of this to come together and make sense. I have learned a great deal from my grandmother and my mother mostly I have learned about the type people I never want to be.
 
DodgesMamMaw said:
I know only too well what a relief it is when you realize you are not alone.
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Yes. It is good to learn and to know the truth about people who are so messed up and have affected you and others that you care for. Narcissists are everywhere.

One thing that we all need to know and remember: narcissists manipulate by playing the victim. They will play victim, but cannot accept that they are the villain, when they are. We have observed it here, first hand. The villain could only accept being the victim.
 
Nope, you're not alone at all Dodges MamMaw. Plenty of us raised by narcs. My sisters and I laugh and laugh about the mean stuff mom does sometimes, and that sounds weird, but it's how we handle it sometimes. I have learned alot from her though. She never was a good parent, had three very unhappy marriages, and now she's mean and demented and has no friends at all. But these are all things she did. And being demented does not stop her from being mean, she still has moments of clarity. My sister will be out the first of the month and mom is so excited to get to see her. We learned real quick to have sister stay with us, it's too unbearable to be with mom for an overnight. I'm looking forward to it because I get a mental break from her. But the meanness will fly for sure.
 
Pearl said:
Weedy, this is such a great thread! Really helped me understand my mother-in-law. My hubby has really come to understand her as well, gives clarity to her behavior!
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Until I even knew about narcissism, I would see people and not understand them or their behavior, especially a few family members. I understand them now and give them a wide berth!
 
The Lazy L said:
I understand, I do too. But sometimes I can’t resist giving them a dose of their own medicine.
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Once in a while, I do too, but I really not to feed that. Just like the women who wanted me to leave the small dog park side that I have spent 100's of hours in with DD. There was a whole bunch that I could have said, but didn't. One of them really wanted to fight. Not me.
 
https://medium.com/practical-growth/spotting-the-signs-of-a-narcissistic-family-7dc4138c1b8c

Spotting the signs of a narcissistic family
Once you know, you can protect yourself.

by: E.B. Johnson

More and more of us are waking up to the reality that we are victims of narcissistic family. We are raised by these toxic individuals, and they imprint us and implant us with their toxic traits and behaviors. When we are the child victims of narcissists, we primarily learn how to make ourselves as small as possible. This is not a path to a good life. If we really want to be happy, then we have to face the truth, set boundaries, and find ways to free ourselves from the shadow of the narcissistic family.

Signs you’re in a narcissistic family.
Narcissistic families keep a lot of their secrets hidden for years. That’s thanks to pseudomutuality and their ability to project the images they need to project. Once we wake ourselves up with compassion, though, the symptoms are clear to see. From enmeshment and scapegoats and to one-sided attention and a demand for perfection — did you grow up in a narcissistic family? Facing the signs is the first step in freeing yourself onto a path of growth.

Toxic enmeshment
Enmeshment is one of the most common signs of a narcissistic family. This occurs when the natural bonds and boundaries are dissolved. There’s no individuality or privacy. The narcissist takes control of the family, and they decide how the rest of the interactions take place. Disallowing personal autonomy, they will make all decisions for their partners and their children. They also cannot allow secrets or personal space. Resentment and conflict come standard as family realize they are being violated and controlled.

Creating scapegoats
Narcissistic families are marked by their use of scapegoats. This is one person who usually gets the majority of the negativity. They get blamed when things go wrong, and they endure the brunt of the abuse from the narcissists in their families. Narcissists and their enablers, who play blame games in order to tear down the “weakest” member of the family, create scapegoats. Joke’s on them, though. The scapegoat generally winds up being the strongest member of the family, the cycle breaker, and the truth teller that exposes the decades of abuse.

Hiding behind traditions
Not all narcissists dwell out in the open with big egos and aggressive demands. Covert narcissists are common in the family group, and they are often far more insidious than the typical grandiose narcissists we think of. The covert narcissist plays victim in order to control everyone around them. They also hide behind assumptions and traditions in order to mask their nastier personality traits. Making them especially potent in the realm of toxic motherhood and fatherhood.

Failure to be accountable
Narcissists can’t be accountable. Their egos simply won’t allow it. Although they may move through life as though they are the most worthy and important person in any room, they don’t truly believe it. The narcissists’ desire for control and power comes from their deep-seated insecurities. Because they feel that someone will discover how unworthy they think they are, they project someone who takes charge. It’s all a charade meant to keep their weaknesses out of sight.

Off-balance attention
When it comes to the narcissistic family, it’s all about the head-hauncho. All the time. All attention must be on the narcissistic at all times — and they’ll do whatever they have to do to make that happen. Everyone else’s desires and needs come second (or not at all) in their world. To the narcissist parent, caretaker, sibling, or friend, the only person that matters is their needs. You will always come in second if you’re ever considered at all.

Manifesting conflict
Conflict comes standard in the narcissistic family. It’s natural. Because the narcissist controls everyone around them, they frequently end up at-odds with those who get resentful or stop doing their bidding. Likewise, the malignant narcissist also uses conflict in order to destabilize the people they want to control. The only way to deal with narcissistic conflict is by not dealing with it at all. You must teach yourself to shut down and walk away.
 
Playing the victim
Does your mother or father play victim? What about your siblings? Playing the victim doesn’t pay, but it’s the favored tactic of covert narcissists. This is the person who always needs help. Everything is always going wrong for them, but it’s always the fault of everyone and anyone else. If you try to confront this person, they will become the victim again. Mysterious (and endless) illnesses and personal disaster-after-disaster leave this person pulling the emotional strings of everyone around them.

Demanding perfection
Perfection demands come standard in the narcissistic family. That’s because narcissists see their family members as reflections of their own personal value or societal standing. Your victories and failures aren’t just your own in the narcissistic family. They become victories and failures of the narcissist. That’s why narcissistic parents demand perfection from their children. Anything less would reflect them as being less than perfect in their own right.

Emotional manipulation
Does your family manipulate you emotionally? This is one of the signature traits of every kind of narcissist. Whether you’re dealing with a covert or overt narcissist, they like to play with your emotions in order to control you. They will make you angry in order to destabilize your decision making. They will make you sad or guilty in order to control the actions and behaviors you take in regard to them. Don’t fall for it. Emotional manipulation is a dangerous game to get caught up in. No one should control your emotional state but you.

How to handle a narcissistic family.
You don’t have to accept the bad treatment and dismissal of your narcissistic family. It’s possible to take a stand and protect your interests and your wellbeing. You must see the truth first and know that it takes nothing from you. Then you can set boundaries and plan to create space between yourself and the narcissists in your family.

1. Let yourself see the truth
There’s no moving forward until you see your family for who they are. Peel back the traditions and the stereotypes that have left you confused and self-loathing all these years. Instead of just assuming that you’re problem in your family, question the behaviors, the motives, and the intent of the people who are pulling the string in your family. Does it really come from a place of altruism? Or is there a narcissist hiding behind their ever-present ego?

Take off the rose-tinted glasses and allow yourself to see the truth for what it really is. Admitting who your parents or your siblings are does not reflect on who you are. Their faults and behaviors do not have to define yours.
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You can’t protect yourself until you see the truth, though. You must accept who they are, and you must accept what their behavior for what it truly is. From there, you can start making a plan to protect yourself. But none of that will happen until you dig deep and find the power and compassion to be honest with yourself. Face all that pain and conflict. Name your family for what they truly are. Say it out loud. Acceptance is the first step on the path to recovering and surviving.

2. Set iron-clad boundaries
Boundaries are necessary in every relationship, but they become the root of survival in the narcissistic family. You’ve got to set boundaries that restore your power. That means taking power away from the narcissist. Those boundaries include everything. They should include how you want to be spoken to, what you want to speak about, and even what physical and emotional details of your life you’re willing to share. Your family doesn’t have a right to more access to your happiness than anyone else.

Set iron-clad boundaries with your family. Put lines around everything that matters to you, and refuse to budge on those things. You have a right to say “no”. You have a right to your own space, your own ideas, and the experiences that provide you with a fulfilling life. Set boundaries around your friendships, your emotions, your own family — everything and anything.
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Your boundaries should show your narcissistic family how you expect to be treated. Spend some time on your own figuring out where those boundaries should lie. What are you willing to talk about with your family? What is absolutely off limits? Think too about the behavior that you need from them. What crosses the line? What is pushing things too far? Figure out what you’re going to do when they disrespect your boundaries. There have to be consequences for disrespecting your natural needs and desires.

3. Move away from confrontation
As you lean into your boundaries, you’re going to run into more and more conflict with your family. Narcissists and their enablers will do anything to make sure their delicate power dynamics are maintained. More often than not, this results in terror campaigns and conflict that create even more toxic emotions. Pulling away from the narcissist will remove power, and this is going to lead to freakouts that are meant to scare you back into line.

Don’t give in to the constant confrontations and blowups. The more boundaries you set, the more upset the narcissists are going to become in your life. Learn to move away from confrontation. Don’t give them the arguments they’re looking for, because you now realize that this is doing little more than giving them more power over your life.
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When the narcissists in your family corner you for a fight — remove yourself. This can be both literally and figuratively. If you have the courage (and the safety) to walk away from, walk away from them. Literally leave the room and refuse to communicate with them until they can do so rationally as an adult. It’s also possible for you to remove yourself emotionally. Adopt a technique known as a the “grey rock” tactic. Give your narcissist no information about your life that you care about. Distance yourself from them emotionally. When they confront you, imagine yourself to be a rock. Immovable and unattached.

4. Find a way to heal yourself
Healing has to happen if you want to recover from the damage and abuse of your narcissistic family. Otherwise, you’re going to stay trapped in hurtful cycles and patterns that keep you under control and attaching to similar personality types. Don’t get it twisted, though. A lot of people think healing means the wounds go away. Not true with narcissistic abuse. While the pain may never completely ebb, you can find a way to remove its power over your life and your emotions.

Find a way to heal yourself and the damage that’s been inflicted. This healing isn’t forgiving and never hurting again. Healing happens across many levels, and more often than not, it requires acceptance more than anything else. To heal is to stop the pain and the patterns that upset your life. You aren’t forgetting, you’re taking your lessons and putting the book on the shelf.
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Commit to a path of healing. You’ve spent decades being twisted up by the warped reality of the narcissists in your family. To get out of that, you have to become determined to see life from your own point-of-view. That’s going to require a new kind of a village around you, though. You need the support of loved ones who genuinely want the best for you. Greater than that, however, you need to make sure you are also working with a coach, counselor, or therapist who has experience helping people like you overcome the tangles of the narcissistic family.
 
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