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Grimm, I remember in my early days at PS, that you seemed to be on the edge of separating from him. We never know what all goes on in people's lives. Sometimes the challenges are insurmountable.
Understanding Narcissism and Narcissists
- Thread starter Weedygarden
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Help Support Homesteading & Country Living Forum:
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Re: your edit
I'm confused but will trust you.
Ben
There are 5 kids in the family. Here they are oldest to youngest...
James, K, Chris, Joy and Monica
James is my father-in-law's natural son from his first wife. K was adopted after he married his second wife before Chris was born. Chris is my father-in-law's natural son with wife #2. After Chris the girls, Joy and Monica, were adopted after they were foster kids with the family. Wife #2 died of cancer about a year before K and I met (2005). During the time she was sick my father-in-law was dating wife #3 (Carolyn).
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We had a lot of issues most of which had to do with K's family. They never treated me like I belonged and K never did anything to fix that. I am the only spouse married into the family as none of the siblings got married and their girlfriends or boyfriends are treated better than I am/was. Things with K have gotten better since he cut his family out of our lives. Sad they can't be a part of our lives or get to know our girls. Hell! They don't even know/or care Juju was born!
My dad had to deal with something similar with my mom's family. The only difference was when my folks got married my mom's family welcomed my dad even if they didn't like him (except my uncle married to my mom's oldest sister). My grandparents realized he had what was best for my mom at heart when he pushed her to go back to college to get a teaching degree after they married. She had a degree from FIT in fashion merchandising.
FIT mention. I had a half tuition scholarship for that place for Fashion Merchandizing way back in 1970. Dad would not pay for the other half, no one had told me about student loans. Then Dad would pay for the 1/2 tuition needed, only if I promised not to get married for 10 years after graduating. I didn't go.
My folks never had intended for me to go to college, it was not the thing everyone did back then.
My folks never had intended for me to go to college, it was not the thing everyone did back then.
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My mom would have been there in 1970. I do think my grandparents did help my mom pay for her tuition but when she married my dad (after her graduation) my dad worked to put her through school. He worked nights at Iowa Beef in Kansas.
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As I said in my original post, this is a complex topic. I have experienced it most, if not all of my life. There are layers and layers to the topic. I have dated narcissists and in spite of knowing about narcissism, didn't even put it together until we were no longer together.
The image of Narcissus gazing at his image in a pond is something that I remember reading about many years ago. I thought it was about that, and my experiences were not in line with that.
My experiences with narcissists have been much more to do with people who are often critical, especially of certain people, especially people who have hurt them. Narcs actually are fragile when it comes to how they perceive themselves. They cannot take criticism or being slighted in any way. I could give you several examples and experiences, but I won't. Over time, it has come to my awareness of the ongoing criticism from these people. My experience of this criticism is usually from narc men, but trust me, I know narc women and have experienced their ongoing criticism.
I have a female neighbor who is a narc and I was always friendly and tried to be her friend for quite a while until one day I hit the wall with her and her ongoing need to be right while I was always wrong in her opinion. None of these people have a need to be looking in the mirror, gazing at themselves. None of them are beautiful people. In fact, the opposite is true, imho. They just have a need to often be know-it-alls and to be right, and to be critical of certain people. There is a reason this neighbor has always been critical of me. I bought the house that six other people tried to buy before me and HUD would not close on with them, because they were already homeowners and some of them had very nice homes already (3500 sq feet). Many of these people were or are my neighbors. People couldn't even acknowledge me when I moved in, let alone be friendly. Narc neighbor was right at the top of that list.
The image of Narcissus gazing at his image in a pond is something that I remember reading about many years ago. I thought it was about that, and my experiences were not in line with that.
My experiences with narcissists have been much more to do with people who are often critical, especially of certain people, especially people who have hurt them. Narcs actually are fragile when it comes to how they perceive themselves. They cannot take criticism or being slighted in any way. I could give you several examples and experiences, but I won't. Over time, it has come to my awareness of the ongoing criticism from these people. My experience of this criticism is usually from narc men, but trust me, I know narc women and have experienced their ongoing criticism.
I have a female neighbor who is a narc and I was always friendly and tried to be her friend for quite a while until one day I hit the wall with her and her ongoing need to be right while I was always wrong in her opinion. None of these people have a need to be looking in the mirror, gazing at themselves. None of them are beautiful people. In fact, the opposite is true, imho. They just have a need to often be know-it-alls and to be right, and to be critical of certain people. There is a reason this neighbor has always been critical of me. I bought the house that six other people tried to buy before me and HUD would not close on with them, because they were already homeowners and some of them had very nice homes already (3500 sq feet). Many of these people were or are my neighbors. People couldn't even acknowledge me when I moved in, let alone be friendly. Narc neighbor was right at the top of that list.
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When the Columbine shooting happened, it was attributed to the shooters being bullied by school jocks. It is possible that that was true, but it would seem to me that the shooters were also bullies, in a different way.
Bullies are frequently narcissists and narcissists are frequently bullies. As a result of that claim that they were bullied, bullying became a big thing for training educators with ways to deal with bullies. Almost every professional development for a couple of years following the Columbine shooting was about bully proofing schools. I am sure this has disappeared now. One of the things that the staff I was working with and I realized when we identified that we had a student who was a bully and when we used the techniques that we were taught, was that in fact the bullies, who had frequently slunk away and gotten away with their bullying, were no longer able to. Children were taught how to deal with their peers, how to confront them, how to stand up to them. The discussions in our trainings now included how the bully was not able to deal with being confronted. They would frequently go into victim mode. Young girls would start to cry and play the victim. It became apparent to me that the bullies are often young narcissists, refining their techniques.
Girls are more likely to bully with words and social exclusion while boys are more likely to be physical.
Bullies are frequently narcissists and narcissists are frequently bullies. As a result of that claim that they were bullied, bullying became a big thing for training educators with ways to deal with bullies. Almost every professional development for a couple of years following the Columbine shooting was about bully proofing schools. I am sure this has disappeared now. One of the things that the staff I was working with and I realized when we identified that we had a student who was a bully and when we used the techniques that we were taught, was that in fact the bullies, who had frequently slunk away and gotten away with their bullying, were no longer able to. Children were taught how to deal with their peers, how to confront them, how to stand up to them. The discussions in our trainings now included how the bully was not able to deal with being confronted. They would frequently go into victim mode. Young girls would start to cry and play the victim. It became apparent to me that the bullies are often young narcissists, refining their techniques.
Girls are more likely to bully with words and social exclusion while boys are more likely to be physical.
@Weedygarden "anti-bully training" is still a big thing in Iowa schools. My daught got so much of it in early elementary that she wanted to play "bully and victim" with me, where I would be the bully and she would use the technique she was taught to defuse the situation. She was taught to use a series of questions. If a person has any kind of self awareness those questions are very effective. But for kids without any conscience I doubt it would do any good...
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There was a time when teachers had such a list of things to teach, they just ignored these kinds of interferences and understandably so. No time to teach if you are dealing with problems. I had a year with a classroom full of bully problems. If I did not deal with the problems, I was not going to get any teaching done. I HAD to deal with situations and I'm not talking about a few minutes here or there. There were occasions where it took a while. One bully can upset the whole rest of the classroom, and did. I was not as equipped to deal with it then as I was later, but upset children get everyone else upset.
Bullies usually do not lose their bullying behavior. They refine it. But their peers can learn how to protect themselves and to deal with bullies. Bullies often have flying monkeys! I have seen it! I have often wondered how narcissistic bullies are and how it shows up in their grown up life. I have a close relative who was a bully growing up and is as narcissistic as they come today.
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A long but good article about "How Narcissistic Parents Scapegoat their Children." Not copying and pasting it all.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...ySf0AS7bJc5Cb9xtaeDnVXjsAKSgUQ6K1_L9nLxVd4j1E
We think about familial bonds between and among parents and their children as being forged by caring, love, support, and shared experiences: frolicking in the snow or going to the beach, roasting marshmallows, holidays and celebrations, etc. And, yes, there are families whose old photo albums and newer Instagram accounts look just like that — potential subjects for a contemporary Norman Rockwell and the stuff that television commercials are made of. In dysfunctional families, though, bonds are formed differently and a lot less prettily. This is especially true when a narcissistic, combative, or controlling mother is at the helm of the family ship. That brings us to the scapegoated child.
Scapegoating: the glue that holds a family together
In ancient tribal societies, a goat — yes, that’s where the term comes from — was chosen to represent the group’s collective sins to appease an angry deity. By casting the animal out, the tribe symbolically guaranteed itself a clean slate going forward. Scapegoating appears in most, if not all, groups — from entire nations to towns to organizations to families — in times of turmoil. Naming a scapegoat and blaming him/her/them for the crisis at hand facilitates not just a sense of unity (us versus them), but also in authoritarian societies provides a go-to explanation for societal problems.
This process happens in families as well, and it can be driven by both conscious and unconscious motives. Becoming the scapegoat can be a temporary role (and family members may rotate in and out of it) or a permanent one. Let’s look at the temporary role first and its effects on family interactions.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...ySf0AS7bJc5Cb9xtaeDnVXjsAKSgUQ6K1_L9nLxVd4j1E
We think about familial bonds between and among parents and their children as being forged by caring, love, support, and shared experiences: frolicking in the snow or going to the beach, roasting marshmallows, holidays and celebrations, etc. And, yes, there are families whose old photo albums and newer Instagram accounts look just like that — potential subjects for a contemporary Norman Rockwell and the stuff that television commercials are made of. In dysfunctional families, though, bonds are formed differently and a lot less prettily. This is especially true when a narcissistic, combative, or controlling mother is at the helm of the family ship. That brings us to the scapegoated child.
Scapegoating: the glue that holds a family together
In ancient tribal societies, a goat — yes, that’s where the term comes from — was chosen to represent the group’s collective sins to appease an angry deity. By casting the animal out, the tribe symbolically guaranteed itself a clean slate going forward. Scapegoating appears in most, if not all, groups — from entire nations to towns to organizations to families — in times of turmoil. Naming a scapegoat and blaming him/her/them for the crisis at hand facilitates not just a sense of unity (us versus them), but also in authoritarian societies provides a go-to explanation for societal problems.
This process happens in families as well, and it can be driven by both conscious and unconscious motives. Becoming the scapegoat can be a temporary role (and family members may rotate in and out of it) or a permanent one. Let’s look at the temporary role first and its effects on family interactions.
Speaking of bullies, one of my all-time favorite clips on YouTube is the Billy Jack ice cream shop scene.
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This one?
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There are many movies out there that show a narcissistic bully in action. "Mommy Dearest" is an extreme example.
"When Did You Last See Your Father?" with Colin Firth is an example of a narcissistic father who bullies his son (Firth), making his son his frequent scapegoat, has affairs and has to be the center of attention. There is a scene in this movies where the father says to his son, "It was a joke." It was no joke, it was the father using the situation they were in to once again bully his son, and then try to pretend the son doesn't get the joke. Being bullied is no joke, but narcissists frequently say this. "It was a joke!" No one is laughing and everyone is uncomfortable except the narcissist.
"When Did You Last See Your Father?" with Colin Firth is an example of a narcissistic father who bullies his son (Firth), making his son his frequent scapegoat, has affairs and has to be the center of attention. There is a scene in this movies where the father says to his son, "It was a joke." It was no joke, it was the father using the situation they were in to once again bully his son, and then try to pretend the son doesn't get the joke. Being bullied is no joke, but narcissists frequently say this. "It was a joke!" No one is laughing and everyone is uncomfortable except the narcissist.
I have a sister that is diagnosed as a what ever I cant spell it. narcissssssssisssiissimmm
This girl is a TRIP. i have cut her loose from my life and refuse to speak to her
I can tell you things..
She stole over 30 grand in silver, was a registered nurse but lost her license for stealing patients drugs
I could go on and on all day about that crazy a%% dingaling
weedy, Why do you want to get me upset and made this early?
This girl is a TRIP. i have cut her loose from my life and refuse to speak to her
I can tell you things..
She stole over 30 grand in silver, was a registered nurse but lost her license for stealing patients drugs
I could go on and on all day about that crazy a%% dingaling
weedy, Why do you want to get me upset and made this early?
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Frodo, I am sorry. My purpose for this thread is to help us understand the people we encounter. Narcissists are not institutionalized like people with other mental disorders. They are not diagnosed very often. I know that sex offenders who have to go through special programs are often diagnosed and learn of their diagnosis. Many narcissists never know. Some who are told by family quickly learn to play with that and act as though they are the victims and of course, always superior. They function in society. I have several relatives who are narcissists as well. Narcissists are everywhere, even here.
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My mom, a queen narc will be interesting when my sis comes to visit in a few weeks. It's throwing mom off because sis is staying with us. Usually she stays with mom and then her face looks like it's been through a war after a day or two. Lately, mom has been making up things about my mother in law. She tells us crazy stories about what my mother in law has said to her. None of it is true. I think she's seen my mother in law maybe 4 times. The first time was 37 years ago. They don't even exchange Christmas cards. We tell her it's not true, but she ignores us. I'm tired of that topic of lies, so I'm sure it'll be something new. We've gotten to the point where we're not shocked anymore, and just really don't care. That ticks her off.
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Some people never figure out that they are being lied to and manipulated. They never realize that someone has made up a bunch of lies to tell others. I know people who are well rehearsed and the lies and what they want out of it.
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My son asked for a rain check for an appointment to help him with a bad circuit in his common bathroom. His mother ( my X) is planning to visit.
Don't want to go there!
My eldest granddaughter told me she was irritated by things the X said. I told her her grandmother was not lying because she doesn't really understand what is real.
Ben
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Same here !
Some are so indoctrinated it is almost cruel to bring up the conflicts.
Ben
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I know someone who can take anything, any happening, any information, any truth, and put such a negative spin on it and make it sound real to anyone. I have heard this person say several times how much she hates gossip and yet, there is no one that I know what can gossip like her. No one. And then take the truth and turn it upside down. This is a person I rarely see or talk to, on purpose, and when I do, I say little, because I know the spin that will be put on it and on me for saying what I said.
For a narcissist, there are a few people who are off limits for their hateful ways and these are carefully selected people. 1. Other narcissists 2. People who do their bidding for them. 3. Their chosen people, carefully selected achieving family members 4. Highly successful people.
This is my whole family (of birth). Even though Mom (and Dad) are gone, the five children are still encamped in the divisions that Mom created before she died. I see the lies - it was painful to figure out just how much of my family life and childhood was built on lies, and I went through a period of grieving. But not all my other siblings have figured it out. And I understand - it felt like my foundation was swept out from underneath me when I realized all my mental constructs - essentially how I perceived the world - was built on lies fed to me by a person who should love me (my mother) but instead was trying to manipulate me for her own gain. It's hard to verbalize it. I do understand why some of my siblings would dig in their heals and refuse to see the truth, because the truth is painful - it means that every perception of our lives is based on a lie.
I struggled with this with my children. I don't know that their dad (my X) was a narcissist, but he had (has) a similar way of rewriting history. My boys, when they were young and in that very literal, black/white cognitive stage would declare, "Dad's a lier!" The best I could do was to clarify with them that what their dad said wasn't true, but he also wasn't a lier because he believed what he was saying.
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@goshengirl , It is one thing for a narcissist to run around and do what they do, but the damage done to those in their sphere is really hard to get over. Some figure it out. Others never do. Narcissists often are the children or grandchildren of narcissistic people. I am not an eye for an eye person. I just wish there was a way to stop the ongoing damage. I see some who are so bought into the lies.
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That's the hard part about my mom. She'll twist a story, or dream something. Then totally elaborates on it until it becomes something entirely different. It's a lie that she believes and retells, and it's usually not something very nice about someone. I have to keep her away from two cousins here at the moment. One she believes has taken her hope chest. She gave me that hope chest 40 years ago, and it needs refinishing on the top from water damage, so my cousin Harry is working on it. She thinks he took it and I have to bring it back to her, even though it's mine. So those two don't need to be together. The other is my favorite cousin's son in law. Mom believes that she saw him at a party, and that he walked out a number of Amish women wearing black bonnets, and that he knelt beside mom, and said, "we weren't welcome here, why did you make us come", and then stormed out. He supposedly always wears a blue shirt. Mom says she's going to give him a piece of her mind. This never happened, and she tells this story to everyone.
I've been more aware of the damage of alcoholism in my family (another thing we can't talk about). I can't control my siblings and how they've raised their children. But I can say "it stops here" within my own family and not let it be passed down my line. To me it is spiritual - healing the future family tree.
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I believe that many families that have alcoholism also have narcissism and vice versa. Lots of alcoholism in my family, and mostly among the narcs. I believe that the alcoholic often feels entitled, as does the narcissist. I once heard someone say they got drunk on their birthday, because they deserved to. Such messed up thinking. Me? I deserve to be clean and sober, even though I have never been a user of drugs but a little alcohol in my youth.
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Looks like Mark Twain understood about fooling people.
Yeah, I'm pretty resistant. Lol.
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For anyone who knows a narcissist or encounters one, the one thing you can never expect from them is an apology for anything they have done or said that was offensive. An apology is not in their make-up. Rage is, though. A narcissist wants to continue with their offensive ways, rage, and wonders why their target hasn't moved in their direction. So if you offended someone and they are now withdrawn from you, you might consider apologizing to them. "I did something that was offensive to you. I deeply regret what I have done. It looks like it has cost me my friendship with you."
True. I have found that a narcissist will apologize with some form of this - "I'm sorry that you feel that way". They can say that they've take responsibility for apologizing, without actually apologizing for their actions. It's a surprisingly effective manipulation and it's something to watch out for...
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My sisters and I have put up with mom for a long time, and she won't apologize. If she knows she's up against a wall and really owes one, she'll wait it out for a couple weeks and then pretend it never happened and swoop back in. It's so predictable, it's amusing. I called her on it months ago when she was really mean to one of my sisters, accusing her of stuff that didn't happen. So, she'll start with asking if I'd heard from my sis, which is my cue for something's up. Told her she needed to apologize. I asked her every day if she did (no), and then told her what she'd do...which is wait another week and call and act like nothing happened. Which she did.
