How important is EXPERIENCE with horror/violence/disaster, and is there a way to compensate for lack of it?

[Aerindel]

Just a random thought...

I feel part of my entire outlook on prepping is dictated by experiences I've had, which cannot be easily 'learned' by most people.
I have been shot, I have treated gunshots in others, I have handled more victims of fatal violence than I can remember. I have been so poor that the only food was rice and beans. I have been on fire. I have fought fire. I am completely comfortable opperating in PPE in an IDLH environment.

I do not think I would be the same person without these experiences.

However, I have not been in what you would call combat, I have not shot anyone. I have not been in a wilderness survival situation. I have not been in a riot, civil disturbance, etc. I have not had to watch a friend or family member die. I have not had to travel long distances on foot.

Is there anyway around lack of experience, in things for which there is no easy simulation of? Is this a deal breaker for prepping for those things?
One thought is, for years before I dealt with my first violent fatality, I thought about what I would do in such a situation.
When the real situation came up, I felt no different about the reality of it, than I did imagining it.

Over the years, I have seen many people's first hands on experience with violent death. I have found that most people who THOUGHT they where able to handle it, actually where able to handle it.

 

[Sourdough]

Just a random thought...

I feel part of my entire outlook on prepping is dictated by experiences I've had, which cannot be easily 'learned' by most people.
I have been shot, I have treated gunshots in others, I have handled more victims of fatal violence than I can remember. I have been so poor that the only food was rice and beans. I have been on fire. I have fought fire. I am completely comfortable opperating in PPE in an IDLH environment.

I do not think I would be the same person without these experiences.

However, I have not been in what you would call combat, I have not shot anyone. I have not been in a wilderness survival situation. I have not been in a riot, civil disturbance, etc. I have not had to watch a friend or family member die. I have not had to travel long distances on foot.

Is there anyway around lack of experience, in things for which there is no easy simulation of? Is this a deal breaker for prepping for those things?
One thought is, for years before I dealt with my first violent fatality, I thought about what I would do in such a situation.
When the real situation came up, I felt no different about the reality of it, than I did imagining it.

Over the years, I have seen many people's first hands on experience with violent death. I have found that most people who THOUGHT they where able to handle it, actually where able to handle it.

I think you have only slightly touched the foundation of this subject. Most are not prepared for the most "BASIC" reality. We live immersed in illusion. nearly all of what we think is real is an illusion.

 

[Alaskajohn]

Just a random thought...

I feel part of my entire outlook on prepping is dictated by experiences I've had, which cannot be easily 'learned' by most people.
I have been shot, I have treated gunshots in others, I have handled more victims of fatal violence than I can remember. I have been so poor that the only food was rice and beans. I have been on fire. I have fought fire. I am completely comfortable opperating in PPE in an IDLH environment.

I do not think I would be the same person without these experiences.

However, I have not been in what you would call combat, I have not shot anyone. I have not been in a wilderness survival situation. I have not been in a riot, civil disturbance, etc. I have not had to watch a friend or family member die. I have not had to travel long distances on foot.

Is there anyway around lack of experience, in things for which there is no easy simulation of? Is this a deal breaker for prepping for those things?
One thought is, for years before I dealt with my first violent fatality, I thought about what I would do in such a situation.
When the real situation came up, I felt no different about the reality of it, than I did imagining it.

Over the years, I have seen many people's first hands on experience with violent death. I have found that most people who THOUGHT they where able to handle it, actually where able to handle it.

It is nearly impossible, practicably, for most western people to have a depth of experience for all of the horrors or challenges of all things SHTF. As a person who has experience some of what you describe and a little bit of combat, one thing I have found common is the need to control fear and the horror that you might witness in order to think rationally to quickly and appropriately respond. That fear and horror of what your see/experience can be overwhelming. Having some knowledge of these instincts and how you respond to it perhaps has some utility when you face new situations. On the flip side, those experiences I describe above came after years of training, so I had a baseline of what an appropriate response looks like. My hope is that I could suppress/channel fear and horror and think/respond appropriately if facing a SHTF that I haven't been exposed to or trained for.

 

[dademoss]

Most people are prepared for NOTHING. I've been picking raspberries in the front yard and people are AMAZED at where they come from. Same with Strawberries, tomatoes, etc. It it's not on a foam tray, wrapped with plastic, it's not safe to eat.

They have not "Seen the elephant", hell they think its not "real"

Now imagine those people in a REAL emergency.

My contingency planning and responses were done long ago.

 

[kd4ulw]

In dire emergencies some people shut down, others may panic. While I haven’t had to deal with too many life and death situations I would hope my ability to prioritize what’s needed at the moment and critical thinking would take over.

I’m in my mid 50s, maybe life experience would help. Really won’t know till it happens.

 

[Peanut]

is there a way to compensate for lack of it?

The answer to that can be taken from the military... tried and true... training!!! And when you're done, train some more.

The thought is that you don't freeze or do something stupid in a crisis. Instead, rely on your training. Training has worked for millennia.

Most of us here are older, had to start over in life after it burned to the ground, literally and figuratively. Life experiences transfer easily to new situations. Adapt, overcome, we've all done it, military or no. The more you know the less gear you need...

Those without life experience or training are going to learn quickly... play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Or not...

 

[Supervisor42]

It is nearly impossible, practicably, for most western people to have a depth of experience for all of the horrors or challenges of all things SHTF. As a person who has experience some of what you describe and a little bit of combat, one thing I have found common is the need to control fear and the horror that you might witness in order to think rationally to quickly and appropriately respond. That fear and horror of what your see/experience can be overwhelming. Having some knowledge of these instincts and how you respond to it perhaps has some utility when you face new situations. On the flip side, those experiences I describe above came after years of training, so I had a baseline of what an appropriate response looks like. My hope is that I could suppress/channel fear and horror and think/respond appropriately if facing a SHTF that I haven't been exposed to or trained for.

Yes, you have to have your heart hardened.
Sure, we hunted and killed a lot of innocent animals for food.
I sometimes quote that my dad made us drown unwanted puppies when I was a kid.
If you had to do that as a kid, it changes you.
Not much I will experience in the future will be worse than that.

 

[INresponse]

My thoughts when I started as a Police Officer, it was just like watching a horror movie. Period. Do not put any personal feelings into it and just deal with what has to be done. Fortunately I encountered very few kids and no infants. And, fortunately since I was in a different state there was very limited incidents with anyone I knew.
That is my best advice. Do what you have to do, overlook anything close to personal, and just get through the situation. You are probably aware of the saying "Fight or Flight". Either way if it gets you through the situation safely it is what is best for you. If there is a bad situation you get yourself and loved ones out of there ASAP. If you can't get away you have to have the mindset that you have have to STOP the problem before it stops you. You can't save everyone if the situation is beyond your control but don't curl up into a ball in the corner because that will help no one. Peeing on a large fire is a better option that doing nothing.

 

[dademoss]

is there a way to compensate for lack of it?

The answer to that can be taken from the military... tried and true... training!!! And when you're done, train some more.

The thought is that you don't freeze or do something stupid in a crisis. Instead, rely on your training. Training has worked for millennia.

Most of us here are older, had to start over in life after it burned to the ground, literally and figuratively. Life experiences transfer easily to new situations. Adapt, overcome, we've all done it, military or no. The more you know the less gear you need...

Those without life experience or training are going to learn quickly... play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Or not...

Don't forget Improvise, it comes in handy on occasion. Sadly, it also means you haven't analyzed all the failure modes and planned your response.

 

[Haertig]

How important is experience?

Remember, all the people who currently have experience in all these things, had no experience when they did them the first time. So the only logical conclusion is that experience may be helpful, but it is not necessary. Otherwise nobody would have any experience - they'd all be dead from their first encounter. You gotta survive that first encounter with no experience to gain any experience.

 

[lonewolf]

its not so much about experience its more of a question of whether they can adapt as the situation changes, if they cant then they will fail.

 

[Caribou]

There are 3 reactions you can take in any serious situation, you can fight, flee, or freeze. If you freeze you are dead. The arena a doctor fights in is different than the arena a soldier fights in, hopefully.

All your experience matters. then your ability to adapt the past experience to the current situation. Everybody has experience and everybody's experience is different.

I used to teach pre hospital medicine to Health Aides. After 13 weeks of training they were in charge o providing medical attention to the village. They were related, one way or another, with the entire village. Every patient they had they knew from birth. They dealt with everything from the common cold to death. They had to keep their cool with newborns to the village elders. You need to be able to deal with strangers, friends, and family.

 

[lonewolf]

not every situation is a fight, flee or freeze one. its how someone reacts is the key, most wont have a clue what to do.
at the end of the day its how we-singular- survive the event whatever it is, or dont as the case may be.

 

[Aerindel]

I used to teach pre hospital medicine to Health Aides. After 13 weeks of training they were in charge o providing medical attention to the village. They were related, one way or another, with the entire village. Every patient they had they knew from birth. They dealt with everything from the common cold to death. They had to keep their cool with newborns to the village elders. You need to be able to deal with strangers, friends, and family.

Yeah, its like that here.
My 'superpower' is that I live isolated up in the woods. Almost nobody down in the valley even knows anybody lives up here. It's helpful when I come out at night to shovel somebodies kid off the highway that I don't know who any of them where.

 

[sonya123]

I learned early on life sucks and then you die. I am now to the point I think if you are too happy something horrible will happen because it usually does. You can't never really relax but must expect it at all times because it will happen.
I am way beyond worrying about stuff like being poor or embarrassed or lonely or even death. At this point in life I only worry about my kids, the animals and becoming a drooling vegetable sitting in a wheelchair or something

 

[Tommyice]

Just a random thought...

I feel part of my entire outlook on prepping is dictated by experiences I've had, which cannot be easily 'learned' by most people.
I have been shot, I have treated gunshots in others, I have handled more victims of fatal violence than I can remember. I have been so poor that the only food was rice and beans. I have been on fire. I have fought fire. I am completely comfortable opperating in PPE in an IDLH environment.

I do not think I would be the same person without these experiences.

How were you prepared for any of those situations you speak of? How did you prepare for being shot or caught on fire? You can't prepare for the unknown or even unexpected. You can only react. I think the best prep anyone can have is clarity of mind. Take control of your emotion and you can begin to take control of your situation.

 

[TENNGRIZZ]

Everyone one lives in a matrix of sorts. some get to see things outside the matrix based on career choices Military, first responders etc. And some based on random luck both good and bad. How one responds to the fact that the Matrix is a Big Lie often determines survival or not.

 

[snappy1]

How important is experience?

Remember, all the people who currently have experience in all these things, had no experience when they did them the first time. So the only logical conclusion is that experience may be helpful, but it is not necessary. Otherwise nobody would have any experience - they'd all be dead from their first encounter. You gotta survive that first encounter with no experience to gain any experience.

I agree with that. Also, being raised in a family that was in police work, I was taught how to think, process and respond to abnormal situations and responses from others. That helped when photographing crime scenes and autopsies in criminalistics dept. at 21 yoa.
I also believe that being raised on a farm and killing and dressing hogs, beef and chickens helped prepare me at a young age.

 

[TENNGRIZZ]

I agree with that. Also, being raised in a family that was in police work, I was taught how to think, process and respond to abnormal situations and responses from others. That helped when photographing crime scenes and autopsies in criminalistics dept.
I also believe that being raised on a farm and killing and dressing hogs, beef and chickens helped prepare me at a young age.

Yeppers # Me Too. Life and death occur daily on farms.

 

[ClemKadiddlehopper]

I learned early on life sucks and then you die. I am now to the point I think if you are too happy something horrible will happen because it usually does. You can't never really relax but must expect it at all times because it will happen.
I am way beyond worrying about stuff like being poor or embarrassed or lonely or even death. At this point in life I only worry about my kids, the animals and becoming a drooling vegetable sitting in a wheelchair or something

This is me.

 

[LadyLocust]

What an intriguing question. I think you’ve touched on a topic few consider or are able to verbalize. I do think considering the possibilities is helpful - as you said, it's a way to address things at least in one's mind. How one reacts in any intense situation can have profound results. I know if a baby or child was hurt, I would struggle, but my typical mode in emergencies is act now, melt down later. I have had my hair on fire & went straight for the closest water. I've never been shot or had to shoot anyone - pray never have to but. . .
As I said above, awareness of potential threats is huge. Many simply exist in Lalaland ignorant of anything outside of what shoes to wear or where to stop for coffee this morning

 

[Caribou]

How were you prepared for any of those situations you speak of? How did you prepare for being shot or caught on fire? You can't prepare for the unknown or even unexpected. You can only react. I think the best prep anyone can have is clarity of mind. Take control of your emotion and you can begin to take control of your situation.

You can prepare for unexpected situations. You play the,'what if' game. You run different situations through your mind, over and over. You practice these situations in effect. You can prepare for anything you can imagine, or even a similar situation. I practice situations for disasters, self defence, or even jokes I can play on someone if the opportunity arrises.

 

[Wingnut]

Interesting responses here... I've seen my share of death, violence, etc., so I feel pretty well-equipped to deal with it when it happens, and yes, sometimes it's best just to GTFO of a dangerous area or situation ASAP. Ya gotta use your head if ya wanna survive, and if ya wanna be useful in situations where OTHERS are threatened or going through grief. Also, I believe in being prepared and having some knowledge & experience in wilderness situations: for decades, I've told friends & family that if they couldn't extricate themselves from ANY situation in the wilderness, then they did NOT belong there. I feel very strongly about that, which is why I took my friends & family remote camping at every opportunity, even in a 10-ton road tractor, lol... remote camping is excellent training in itself, there are things to be done if you're gonna live safely & comfortably in the field. That's why friends & family weren't surprised when I spent 109 days living out of a tent (with 3 cats) while waiting for the right fixer home to hit the real estate market, lol. I'll DO things like that to make better things happen... anyway, here's a little tale from the road that kinda describes how I think and operate in the field when faced with dire situations. This little scenario could've unfolded in an ugly way had I not been there to help...

For The Birds

Back in the day, I wrote a story titled 'FADE INTO THE DESERT'---a tale of adventure which involved a 4-day solo trip into Anza-Borrego. I wound up getting the Oldsmobile stuck in a patch of deep sand in BFE, I'm talkin' the middle of nowhere, lol. Took me 5 hours to extricate myself (and the Olds) from that situation, using my trusty E-Tool (or Army Entrenching Tool) to do the trick. Honestly, before the final and successful effort to get the car back on hard ground, I was ready to camp there on the spot and resume work the following morning. When I made the hard track again, the holes left where my wheels dug into the sand resembled a six-spot in a deck of cards. I drove off and camped at the site of a classic old stagecoach station, real Old West style, but the following day I RETURNED to the spot where I had been stuck, and I drank ice-cold beer as I sat on the hood of the Olds and listened to Jimi Hendrix playing "The Star-Spangled Banner"---my way of SALUTING that difficult obstacle and THANKING it for testing my mettle in the field. Cell phone? Yeah, I had one, but I never even bothered checking it for service, I just set to work, knowing what had to be done. I wish I still had that story, it was written at a website called 'NerdScout' years ago, and I lost it when the original site crashed.

 

[SoJer]

Post fer L8r..

jd

 

[Weedygarden]

There are 3 reactions you can take in any serious situation, you can fight, flee, or freeze. If you freeze you are dead. The arena a doctor fights in is different than the arena a soldier fights in, hopefully.

All your experience matters. then your ability to adapt the past experience to the current situation. Everybody has experience and everybody's experience is different.

I used to teach pre hospital medicine to Health Aides. After 13 weeks of training they were in charge o providing medical attention to the village. They were related, one way or another, with the entire village. Every patient they had they knew from birth. They dealt with everything from the common cold to death. They had to keep their cool with newborns to the village elders. You need to be able to deal with strangers, friends, and family.

Daughter and I have been talking about this. People, probably mostly women and children, in traumatic situations will fawn. They will try to please the abuser. Fight, Flight, Freeze, Fawn, Flop. Fight or flight has long been the known reactions to trauma. Fawn might describe people in bad situations where there is lots of physical abuse. They do whatever they can to get the abuser to back off, calm down.

This web site has a pop up that comes on that I just closed when it opened. Trauma Therapy - Fight, Flight, Freeze, Fawn, and Flop: Responses to Trauma

FAWN​

The fawn response involves complying after you’ve tried fight, flight, or freeze several times without success. This response to a threat is common for people who have experienced abuse, especially those with narcissistic caregivers or romantic partners.

The fawn response may show up as people-pleasing, even to your detriment. You may use compliance and helpfulness to avoid abuse; you disregard your happiness and well-being no matter how poorly someone treats you. This trauma response is often used to diffuse conflict and return to a feeling of safety.

FLOP​

In a flop trauma response, we become entirely physically or mentally unresponsive and may even faint. Fainting in response to being paralyzed by fear is caused when someone gets so overwhelmed by the stress that they physically collapse.

You may see animals “play dead” or faint when approached by a dangerous predator — fighting or running away would only instigate the predator more. Tonic immobility may enhance survival and is therefore adaptive when there is no perceived possibility of escaping or winning a fight. One example of the flop response is fainting in the presence of blood or an injection.

 

[montanabill]

Definately running thru scenarios in your mind can have some benifit as long as you don't get stuck in them.
I still remember doing some role playing at a training put on by a high end company. We traded off being on either side of the problem and since we had all encountered similar situations we could really get into it. I learned a lot.
I agree that farm life tends to expose you to more of the mud , excrement, cold, dark and fear and death. I learned first hand how fast a big hog can run and how sharp it's small tusks are.
If I ever have to trust someone to pull armed guard duty for our place the one question I will ask is "have you ever killed a living thing while you watched it?"

Also a part of this discussion is what do you do after the incident. There is a thing called "critical incident debriefing" which is where you talk the incident out with someone who has also been thru a similar incident.

 

[Peanut]

I’ve posted about the guys at On Point Tactical before. They do specialized training for the military and have several classes for civilians.

I took their urban escape and evasion course. The premise… you’re kidnapped while traveling. You escape but now you are being hunted. The class taught how to be a ghost in an urban environment. Where to find resources and how to use them. Basically a civilian version of SERE training.

The final day of class starts with being cuffed, hooded and tased. Then tossed into the back of a van with other victims and taken for a drive. None of this was very pleasant… but we had skills, like how to control adrenaline and get out of our cuffs. When left alone in the van we helped free ourselves and made our escape. We were then hunted by professionals for 8 hours in downtown Atlanta. While being hunted we had 10 things to accomplish, find food, water, transportation, money. We even had to pick a lock with tools we could find.

I highly recommend these guys for training. They offer several classes that would be useful in the future.

 

[Aerindel]

Also a part of this discussion is what do you do after the incident. There is a thing called "critical incident debriefing" which is where you talk the incident out with someone who has also been thru a similar incident.

Yeah, but its a Fing joke. I walked out of the last one they made me go to. Last thing that is going to help me (not that I wanted help) is some gay man bun wearing therapist. I don't care if he was once a cop.....before he had his nervous breakdown and decided to spend the rest of his life 'helping' people.

I've been to a dozen CISD meetings, they where all a waste of time. Never again. Bunch of losers saying how its okay to be a loser like them.

 

[SoJer]

is there a way to compensate for lack of it?

...training!!! And when you're done, train some more.

Very Strongly Agreed.. Certainly excellent to 'role play' in yer mind / Imagine, as vividly as possible, working thru some 'scenario' - And, even better if being able to draw on 'images' implanted in ones own mind from Reality (not Hollymold, et al) ie: Videos / photos of the most horrific Actual 'gore' / accident / GSW, etc scenes possible) but in the end, there's just simply No Substitute for getting out there and Doing - at least Some - of what you hope or expect to confront.

..You've simply Got to get the 'mind-to-muscle memory paths blazed', and the 'theory' simply can't achieve that. Just like simply "owning guns" is only the Baseline to becoming proficient and accurate / consistent with them.. And then, under duress, and even 'urban combat-sim' like settings, of some sort. You may be an Incredible bench shooter, but if you can't run / hide / conceal / shoot well prone, etc - that could end up yer 'Achilles heel'..

Also:

its not so much about experience its more of a question of whether they can adapt as the situation changes, if they cant then they will fail.

Totally Agree. Adaptability - when - not If, but When - what you "planned" / trained-for falls apart or is 'broken' by something you just didn't forsee.. Extremely-important to Also drill / train / practice such 'Macguyverism'.

...Also a part of this discussion is what do you do after the incident. There is a thing called "critical incident debriefing" which is where you talk the incident out with someone who has also been thru a similar incident.

I recall 'AAR's - After Action Reports - after Every Call, way back in the EMT-days.. Not necessarily 'talk it out with someone who's Been thru the Same' (like "therapy") but more: What happened, What was Done about it (treatments, etc) and What was done Right - or Wrong - and, even when all was done 'right', what Might be able to have-been done Better / what Lessons could be distilled for all Others / next time out on a similar call, etc..

Good times.

jd

 

[Aerindel]

I recall 'AAR's - After Action Reports - after Every Call, way back in the EMT-days.. Not necessarily 'talk it out with someone who's Been thru the Same' (like "therapy") but more: What happened, What was Done about it (treatments, etc) and What was done Right - or Wrong - and, even when all was done 'right', what Might be able to have-been done Better / what Lessons could be distilled for all Others / next time out on a similar call, etc..

Yep, AARs are fine.

Critical Incident Stress Debriefings are a whole other animal.