Other AFFORDABLE DIY methods of power, heating or cooling generation and storage.

[Biggkidd]

This thread is in hopes of creating some brain storming amongst the members here. Who are all probably smarter than I am. lol

The talk about thermo electric got me thinking about all the ways we've made, stored and used power over the years. This also made me wonder if there aren't less expensive or longer lasting lower maintenance methods. Maybe different combinations of making and or storing power in one form or another. Lets face it liquid fuels are amazingly simple to use but liquid fuels appear to be headed out. Then there's the maintenance, expense and pollution. Plus liquid fuels don't store well.
Personally I have worn out somewhere around a dozen generators including several Honda's that lasted over 20,000 hours each. That's about 4 times the number of hours most other brands last. But at this stage of my life I'm getting tired of replacing and repairing stuff all the time and with rising prices that's really no longer an option.

Then there are batteries. In 14 years here come January we have been through 3 sets of used batteries I believe and we are due for another set now.

We have used countless methods of making power including solar, steam, gas, diesel and Hydroxy. We have also made heat by putting hydroxy to the material inside a catalytic converter. Which creates some sort of chemical reaction making it glow red and put off heat.

Batteries are the only power storage method we have tried but there has to be something better, cheaper, longer lasting.

So come on guys & gals lets figure this out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


ETA: Maybe I should have added making liquid fuels as another option........

 

[Neb]

Gasifiers?

They heat wood or coal in a low oxygen vessel and the evolved gas can be burned like natural gas.



Ben

 

[Biggkidd]

Gasifiers?

They heat wood or coal in a low oxygen vessel and the evolved gas can be burned like natural gas.



Ben

That's a definite possibility. But I have several problems with it. First you are still running a relatively high RPM internal combustion engine. Which is loud and requires regular repair and maintenance expenses. Second is the difficulty of cleaning the gas so the engine doesn't crap out from the deposits. Third is the amount of hands on time required. Fourth in a factory made gas generator that's been repurposed to run on it you have to de-rate the engine quite a lot because wood gas only makes about 60-70% of the power of gasoline.

What I am interested in and we all should be is an autonomous or nearly so system that we can set and forget for the most part.

Solar is a decent method of making power for us and we live in VA where we only have about 180 sunny days. Which is fine with enough storage it's mainly storage that's the biggest issue for us and probably for most people.

 

[Biggkidd]

I have been looking at mechanical and hydro power storage options over the last few years. I have seen some really neat options like a lifted weight that turns a generator as it comes down. Or a LARGE heavy flywheel that spins floating on magnets so there's almost no friction loss. or Pumped water storage to turn hydro generators.

In my time playing with hydroxy I ran a Honda EU2000 with it but it didn't take load increases well like a refrigerator coming on. But that brought me back to a thought I was having back then. Can you compress hydroxy can you store it? If so a specially made or modified IC engine could be made to run off of it while it could be produced with solar on sunny days. Then again that puts us back to a loud engine that needs regular maintenance etc..

 

[Tirediron]

I have been trying to figure out a way to use propane as a medium to cause cooling from heatin a closed loop. It is a very efficient evaporative refrigerant but you need almost negative pressure in a receiver, to keep the high side at a reasonable pressure. perhaps a limited run time pump to move lots the medium , instead of intermittent pumping with very little medium.
I think we may want to try to stay away as much as possible from generators and batteries, they just feel like a weekend camping solution. unless one gets away from consumables, you really are still on the grid to a point, now wood gas as a lighting and direct heat source, that could be a plan, and lets not forget animal waste methane, I guess human waste too.

 

[Biggkidd]

I have been trying to figure out a way to use propane as a medium to cause cooling from heatin a closed loop. It is a very efficient evaporative refrigerant but you need almost negative pressure in a receiver, to keep the high side at a reasonable pressure. perhaps a limited run time pump to move lots the medium , instead of intermittent pumping with very little medium.
I think we may want to try to stay away as much as possible from generators and batteries, they just feel like a weekend camping solution. unless one gets away from consumables, you really are still on the grid to a point, now wood gas as a lighting and direct heat source, that could be a plan, and lets not forget animal waste methane, I guess human waste too.

EXACTLY my point!

Biogas is possible but it takes huge amounts of waste. A local to me homesteader has a home biogas unit they use. It provides about 2 hours of cooking ability everyday. That might last 10 minutes in a small generator like a Honda EU2000 but again biogas like wood gas only provides around 2/3 the BTU (power) of gas.

Here with the panels we have and the amount of sun we get we can make way more power than we ever use IF we had a way to store it.

 

[Biggkidd]

I have been trying to figure out a way to use propane as a medium to cause cooling from heatin a closed loop. It is a very efficient evaporative refrigerant but you need almost negative pressure in a receiver, to keep the high side at a reasonable pressure. perhaps a limited run time pump to move lots the medium , instead of intermittent pumping with very little medium.
I think we may want to try to stay away as much as possible from generators and batteries, they just feel like a weekend camping solution. unless one gets away from consumables, you really are still on the grid to a point, now wood gas as a lighting and direct heat source, that could be a plan, and lets not forget animal waste methane, I guess human waste too.

Have you considered Ammonia?

 

[Neb]

This thread is in hopes of creating some brain storming amongst the members here. Who are all probably smarter than I am. lol

The talk about thermo electric got me thinking about all the ways we've made, stored and used power over the years. This also made me wonder if there aren't less expensive or longer lasting lower maintenance methods. Maybe different combinations of making and or storing power in one form or another. Lets face it liquid fuels are amazingly simple to use but liquid fuels appear to be headed out. Then there's the maintenance, expense and pollution. Plus liquid fuels don't store well.
Personally I have worn out somewhere around a dozen generators including several Honda's that lasted over 20,000 hours each. That's about 4 times the number of hours most other brands last. But at this stage of my life I'm getting tired of replacing and repairing stuff all the time and with rising prices that's really no longer an option.

Then there are batteries. In 14 years here come January we have been through 3 sets of used batteries I believe and we are due for another set now.

We have used countless methods of making power including solar, steam, gas, diesel and Hydroxy. We have also made heat by putting hydroxy to the material inside a catalytic converter. Which creates some sort of chemical reaction making it glow red and put off heat.

Batteries are the only power storage method we have tried but there has to be something better, cheaper, longer lasting.

So come on guys & gals lets figure this out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


ETA: Maybe I should have added making liquid fuels as another option........

If we looki g to reduce our needs on need on fuels we can look back to see how it was done back in the day...

A spring is a double blessing. Not only does it provide water but it also provides a stable temperature sink. Spring house took advantage of a stable cool temperature as a way to preserve foods at a constant 65 degrees or so. Not a refrigerator but hey...

In extreme cold a spring can keep a pond free of ice. Check out this video that i think shows what "hore frost" is



Bottom line...

Don't dismiss going under ground to reduce energy demands.

Ben

 

[viking]

I've hammered at this before but it's important enough to repeat. Anyone considering solar needs to understand this, first of all, when designing a solar panel system, do not buy panels that only have a small amount of voltage output above what the batteries run at. The higher the voltage you can have the better charge your batteries will get, even on poor sun days, our solar array runs between 70 and 80 volts on average, controlled by an MPPT solar controller, we've had good charging voltage and amperage on cloudy, rainy days, enough to run our 4,000 watt pure sine wave inverter and put a modest charge on the batteries. Our MorningStar MPPT solar controller will run on over 100 volts from a solar array, this is a good thing if the batteries, controller and inverter are at a distance from the solar array, even if you loose a few volts you will still get a good operating voltage and actually the heavier gauge of wire you use between the array and the controller, the less likely you will loose voltage to amount to anything, I used #6 THNN and any voltage drop is minimal for the 50 feet distance between the array and the controller in the battery shed. I'm just putting this out because I've heard of a lot of people looking at package systems that I know would let them down. The truth is, it pays to do a lot of research on your own, that's what we did as well as asking solar equipment sales businesses about what you can do, I got tons of great info from AM Solar and Grape Solar in Eugene, Oregon. With all the research we have done, I would rather build our own system than buying a packaged system, on the other hand, there are good package systems available, you just need to do your homework to see if it fits your needs.

 

[Supervisor42]

Gasifiers?

They heat wood or coal in a low oxygen vessel and the evolved gas can be burned like natural gas.



Ben

I remember my dad talking about them running trucks on "Producer Gas" when he was in Germany after WW2 ended, because there was no gasoline.
"You used trees to power trucks?"
Yep.
It's better than nothing, if nothing is all you have.

 

[Neb]

I've hammered at this before but it's important enough to repeat. Anyone considering solar needs to understand this, first of all, when designing a solar panel system, do not buy panels that only have a small amount of voltage output above what the batteries run at. The higher the voltage you can have the better charge your batteries will get, even on poor sun days, our solar array runs between 70 and 80 volts on average, controlled by an MPPT solar controller, we've had good charging voltage and amperage on cloudy, rainy days, enough to run our 4,000 watt pure sine wave inverter and put a modest charge on the batteries. Our MorningStar MPPT solar controller will run on over 100 volts from a solar array, this is a good thing if the batteries, controller and inverter are at a distance from the solar array, even if you loose a few volts you will still get a good operating voltage and actually the heavier gauge of wire you use between the array and the controller, the less likely you will loose voltage to amount to anything, I used #6 THNN and any voltage drop is minimal for the 50 feet distance between the array and the controller in the battery shed. I'm just putting this out because I've heard of a lot of people looking at package systems that I know would let them down. The truth is, it pays to do a lot of research on your own, that's what we did as well as asking solar equipment sales businesses about what you can do, I got tons of great info from AM Solar and Grape Solar in Eugene, Oregon. With all the research we have done, I would rather build our own system than buying a packaged system, on the other hand, there are good package systems available, you just need to do your homework to see if it fits your needs.

Agreed but

How many decades will that work?

How do we keep that path viable lacking a technology support sysytem?

Ben

 

[Peanut]

I remember my dad talking about them running trucks on "Producer Gas" when he was in Germany after WW2 ended, because there was no gasoline.
"You used trees to power trucks?"
Yep.
It's better than nothing, if nothing is all you have.

Similar story, a cousin of my dad, still fighting in Germany. They were ordered to commandeer a truck in a village but no one knew how to run it, wood gas! So, the people in the village kept their only truck and the grunts had to hoof it! By the last few months of the war, wood gas vehicles were in every country.

 

[Tirediron]

Have you considered Ammonia?

I have, but i would like to expand the evaporative system concept, low boiling point liquids seem easier to obtain, and because I have a bunch of propane related crap around.

 

[Tirediron]

I f a person wants to use a engine driven genset, wood gas is probably a really good option, in a stationary situation a person could keep the gas cool and clean a lot easier

 

[viking]

Agreed but

How many decades will that work?

How do we keep that path viable lacking a technology support sysytem?

Ben

I don't know how many decades our system will work, I do know that panels loose their efficiency over the years, I know that Monochrystaline panels are considered to be the longest lasting panels, I've taken this into account and even with efficiency drop the system will last a long time, considering the small amount of electric needs that I designed the system to take care of. Our solar backup system is basically over designed to take care of performance loss.

 

[Biggkidd]

We currently have 6,000 watts in panels. We get by fine so far using 2400 watts. I haven't even hooked up the other 3600 yet. Our system is 48 volts.

Another fuel that can be made from trees is some type of alcohol which can be made from lots of sources. Although I never have much liked the idea of making fuel out of food plants.

For that matter corn burned also makes good heat.

As I have mentioned in the past. A pond seems like a slightly possible yet highly unlikely option for us for pumped water storage hydro power. The pond if built would catch rain & run off water but also pump water up from the large creek on a corner of our property on sunny days and release said water in times of power need when the sun doesn't shine.

 

[Tirediron]

the fun thing about not grid is that each set up is site specific, if you have elevation for water storage that would be a nice battery for sure

 

[Biggkidd]

the fun thing about not grid is that each set up is site specific, if you have elevation for water storage that would be a nice battery for sure

175 feet according to the surveyors from the creek to the top of the property. So that makes the possible pond site about 100 feet above the creek.

 

[Tirediron]

now we need to figure out how to get the said water to up the hill using firewood power, and then you can use the water to generate electricity

 

[Biggkidd]

now we need to figure out how to get the said water to up the hill using firewood power, and then you can use the water to generate electricity

I was thinking more along the lines of solar pumping it up on sunny days. But I am absolutly open to any and all ideas!

 

[Neb]

I was thinking more along the lines of solar pumping it up on sunny days. But I am absolutly open to any and all ideas!

Hydraulic ram pump

Ben

 

[Biggkidd]

Hydraulic ram pump

Ben

Ben the creek is very slow moving and flat about 1 foot of fall in 100 feet. It is also 24 feet wide and stays 16+ inches deep year round. But during storms is known to rise as much as 6 feet.

 

[Tirediron]

one of the things that I am planning to experiment with is a chest fridge, I have an old combination fridge/ freezer, that no longer works, the compressor still runs so I am guessing the refrigerant leaked . the plan is to relocate the compressor and some of the condenser coils as well as change the orientation to chest from upright to avoid the loss of coold air everytime the door is opened.
I also built a pedal powered chain bucking saw, If there is interest there was a link to a video on prepared society, which I am sure we could bring here easy enough

 

[Neb]

Re: the stream crossing your place

What is the total drip from where it enters and departs?

What is the depth width and flow rate ?

Do you have the rights to build a dam?

Ben

 

[Biggkidd]

No I can't dam it I only own the one side center of the creek it the property line. IIRC it's the edge of my property for 180 feet and over that length the drop is negligible

 

[GaryLa]

I would think that with a large enough funnel, you could turn a propeller with water moving at any speed. The harder to turn, the larger the funnel.

 

[Tirediron]

I would think that with a large enough funnel, you could turn a propeller with water moving at any speed. The harder to turn, the larger the funnel.

I was thinking on similar lines except perhaps a paddle wheel mounted between pontoons , after all Biggkidd needs something to build with the trees he just took down for more solar.

 

[Aerindel]

What I am interested in and we all should be is an autonomous or nearly so system that we can set and forget for the most part.

The dream of man.

Yet to be realized.

Energy is a real B*** that way. Thermodynamics will not be cheated.



My solar system has been running at 2% capacity for weeks. I've had to put my battery bank on a grid tied trickle charger. Not very much sunlight makes it to the ground this time of year.

 

[Aerindel]

I would think that with a large enough funnel, you could turn a propeller with water moving at any speed. The harder to turn, the larger the funnel.

Water is non-compressible. A funnel would do nothing to increase water speed or pressure.

 

[GaryLa]

Water is non-compressible. A funnel would do nothing to increase water speed or pressure.

A dam is a funnel. Funnels are used to change both pressure and speed.

One can simply compute the torque required to turn the generator and compare it with the pressure of the incompressible water to figure out what energy may be extracted.

Without the funnel, the water would simply go around the propeller -- taking the path of least resistance. (Assuming the generator requires some torque.) But if you dam it up in the funnel it can be forced to turn the propeller because the column of water pressing against the funnel's opening exerts pressure.