Rotated between my SUVs again today

[Rick]

I live very close to work so I am always concerned about how these ultra short trips affect my vehicles.
Added to that I have 2 so there are even less miles put on them.

So I usually go out of my way when I go shopping to drive over to the next town.
This way each vehicles at least gets up to temperature once a week with a 22 mile round trip.
I usually make a point in driving them a little hard on that trip to.

When I rotate from one to the other I make sure I park it only right after its been fully warmed up via a trip like that.
This way I hope to minimize water and fuel buildup in the oil and keep battery perfectly charged before the truck sits for a week.

So today I did just that with my Xterra and also put in a bottle of Seafoam to stabilize the fuel a bit and to add some cleaning.
Seafoam is not as good a fuel stabilizer as StaBil or as good a cleaner as Techron or BG44K but it does a useful amount of each so I am happy with it in my application.

I added it before the trip and before I topped up the trip to make sure its in the fuel lines also.

This way I should have at least one 4x4 SUV at the ready at all times full fueled to the brim and with fully charged battery

 

[Sentry18]

Makes sense to me.

I like Seafoam too and always have a couple cans on hand.

 

[zoomzoom]

Seafoam is not as good a fuel stabilizer as StaBil or as good a cleaner as Techron or BG44K but it does a useful amount of each so I am happy with it in my application.

Can you elaborate? I've always thought Seafoam was better than the red StaBil. The blue (marine) StaBil is better than the red stuff.

We're playing musical cars here as well. Put the snow tires on the Accord and Avalon so my wife can choose one of those for the winter. I put away my sedan (RWD) and got the truck ready for winter.

 

[Redbeard]

Just for information purposes your fuel injected vehicle's don't really care about the fuel as far as if it will run or not. Im not saying you are doing anything wrong in fact you are treating your rigs great. Im just saying fuel injected rigs will burn fuel that carbed engines won't. They may not like it but they will run. Because the fuel is atomized so much better in the injected rigs it isn't as much if a concern as to weather they will start or not. Side note on seafoam if you buy the transmission seafoam it is just a concentrated version of the fuel seafoam. More bang for your buck.

 

[Redbeard]

Can you elaborate? I've always thought Seafoam was better than the red StaBil. The blue (marine) StaBil is better than the red stuff.

We're playing musical cars here as well. Put the snow tires on the Accord and Avalon so my wife can choose one of those for the winter. I put away my sedan (RWD) and got the truck ready for winter.

Startron is the best for fuel stabilization and to fight ethanol. Seafoam is a great cleaner for fuel systems. I have seen it do some impressive stuff.

 

[Rick]

Seafoam has been around a longer and is better than StaBil in the sense that it also has a useful cleaning action.
but its formula was created many decades ago when free radical chemistry was less understood and StaBil is newer and it specializes in just stabilizing.. so I would be very surprised if Seafoam could outperform it in that specific role. For stabilizing fuel there is also PRI-G now as well.. which I also use. they claim to be superior to StaBil.. but everyone claims to be superior to their competition..

If I was to stabilize fuel for very long term in a vehicle ..say a year or so.. I would use true non ethanol gasoline.. backed up by StaBil or PRI-G .. and then clean out the vehicle fuels system once i run it again with techron or BG44k

 

[Redbeard]

Seafoam has been around a longer and is better than StaBil in the sense that it also has a useful cleaning action.
but its formula was created many decades ago when free radical chemistry was less understood and StaBil is newer and it specializes in just stabilizing.. so I would be very surprised if Seafoam could outperform it in that specific role. For stabilizing fuel there is also PRI-G now as well.. which I also use. they claim to be superior to StaBil.. but everyone claims to be superior to their competition..

If I was to stabilize fuel for very long term in a vehicle ..say a year or so.. I would use true non ethanol gasoline.. backed up by StaBil or PRI-G .. and then clean out the vehicle fuels system once i run it again with techron or BG44k

Pri g will bring stale varnish smelling gas back to fresh. That stuff is great! We would drain stale gas from equipment into used 1 gallon oil jugs add pri g and a week later the gas was fresh and usable again. Stabil can't do that. All stabil does is form a thin layer across the fuel when it sits to protect it from oxygen and moisture. Pri g actually mixs with the fuel and effects it on a molecular level. Pri g for me over stabil anyday.

 

[Rick]

PRI-G makes a lot of claims.. and I use it also... but there is no magical chemistry only known to one chemical company. Organic chemistry is a mature science and truly new things are rare.
I am confident in both StaBil and Pri-G.

 

[Redbeard]

PRI-G makes a lot of claims.. and I use it also... but there is no magical chemistry only known to one chemical company. Organic chemistry is a mature science and truly new things are rare.
I am confident in both StaBil and Pri-G.

Im not going by claims im going by what i have seen with my own eyes. Pri g can make stale fuel fresh again. Did it for 2 years and it worked every time. Stabil was tested to see if it would do it. It did not. I ran a small engine shop in ct so i had more than enough stale fuel to test with. I don't even know what they claim it will do i have just been in the small engine world for feels like ever. Small engines are the most finicky when it comes to fuel conditions. I am certified sthil, husky, toro, troybuilt, echo, johnsered, shindawa, grasshopper, exmark, kohler, Briggs, vermer stump grinder-daihatsu diesel, generac generators, and i even have an old tecumseh certification from back when they were in business. So as i know nothing of chemistry other than a few house hold items that are fun to combine i do have experience and have talked to the manufacturers and heard what they will not say to the general public. Seen alot of equipment that was put up witb Stabil in it and it didn't matter, still needed fresh fuel and new fuel lines. I think stabil is a waste of money startron or pri g. But that's just my opinion based on small engine experience.

 

[Rick]

Fair enough

 

[Redbeard]

Fair enough

I hope you dont think im trying to be a jerk as the typed word doesn't imply tone. I know you are most likely more knowable in the chemistry department. I have seen you talk way over my head.

 

[Caribou]

Techron last time and Marvel Mystery Oil the time before that. I change around my fuel additives under the theory that what one doesn't burn off the next one will. I use Sta-Bil for long term storage but if I ever see any PRI-G I'll buy some of that.

 

[Redbeard]

Techron last time and Marvel Mystery Oil the time before that. I change around my fuel additives under the theory that what one doesn't burn off the next one will. I use Sta-Bil for long term storage but if I ever see any PRI-G I'll buy some of that.

Amazon has the best prices. Small bottles all the way up to gallons. Pri-g for gas and pri-d for diesel.

 

[Rick]

Lets talk a little bit about some basic science behind fuel degradation.

(Caveat: I dont purport to be omniscient, I may be a chemist but chemistry is a huge field and I am not a petro-chemist.. so there are limits to what I can describe/understand..if there is a Petrochemist on the board please chime in as well.. )

There are two major (and one minor) causes of degradation of a refined fossil fuel such as Gasoline.

Oxidation: The Oxygen in air is actually a pretty aggressive chemical. Any fuel tank open to air, such as in vehicle tanks and vented Jerry cans will suffer some oxidation of its compound.
Fuels can burn, this burn is a form of oxidation. So anything thats useful for burning can generally oxidize in solution as well.
Evaporation: Every Hydro carbon fuel can evaporate. Gasoline is made up of many different kinds of hydrocarbons. some are shorter chained (smaller) than others. Smaller molecules generally evaporate faster so gasoline that is open to air will progressively lose its lighter fractions and retain its bigger fractions.. In turn this will make it less flammable and depress its flashpoint. Once the flashpoint drops below a certain level combustion in a fossil fuel engine is either not possible or only with difficulty and problems
Phase Separation: This is really only an issue with fuel that has Ethanol mixed in.
Ethanol usually mixes just fine with Gasoline.. but its hydroscopic.. so it attracts water... To a point that's good because free water from condensation in the fuel tank or other sources will generally be dissolved by the Ethanol fraction and not impact the fuel. This also means you really never need to add "fuel dryer" in the winter .
But it also becomes a problem when the fuel stands for a long time especially if its open to air.... as the Ethanol fraction will keep attracting water until it eventually becomes saturated.. then it will "want" to seperate from the gasoline to attract more water and form a pure (ish) layer on the bottom of your fuel tank. This is bad because the water fraction can become quite high in this layer which is very bad.but even w/o that near pure Ethanol is bad for fuel lines gaskets etc .. at least in those vehicles which are not E85 rated (and thats most).

How to prevent fuel degradation:
Oxidation in fuel is a free radical chain reaction. The way fuel stabilizers work is by injecting chemicals that serve as free radical traps and thus stop the free radical chain. This is what StaBil and Pri-G purport to do.
The Evaporation of light fractions is much harder to control
I imagine some compounds could increase surface tension , but that may also impact combustibility..another method is to simply add light fractions as part of the stabilizer. I know StaBil does not have a lot of light fractions and they claim to work via free radical capture.
I would be surprised if Seafoam does free radical capture.. but it does contain a lot of light fractions.
Speaking of which, the only way the "refresh" oil is (or should be) via adding light fraction.
Seafoam can do that to a point so can toluene , acetone if mixed with old gas and similar lighter hydrocarbon fractions.

I am very uncertain how Pri-G could do this w/o a large amount of light fraction solvent for its active ingredient (which must be based on free radical capture)

Couple other thoughts:
When you are in a survival situation + you can drain the bottom of a tank to get rid of a seperated phase that would leave u with the main fuel. If this was open to air it will have a) lost its light fraction and b) from oxidation will have undergone some chemical changes.
I do not know how to do anything about b) but you can address a) via adding painthinner, isoheet, heet, toluene and such to the old gas.
For most engines (unless too much time has passed) you should still be able to concoct a combustable mix in this fashion.

 

[Rick]

I hope you dont think im trying to be a jerk as the typed word doesn't imply tone. I know you are most likely more knowable in the chemistry department. I have seen you talk way over my head.

No offense taken at all Sir.
I value your experience highly and read your comments w/ great interest.

I just cannot reconcile the "refreshes the fuel" of PRI-G with what I know of organic chemistry and combustion.
I looked at the SDS of both PRI-G and StaBil and both have a large light fraction solvent and then some active ingredients. StaBil's are not described but I suspect its amines just like PRI-G (which does list them).

 

[Redbeard]

Lets talk a little bit about some basic science behind fuel degradation.

(Caveat: I dont purport to be omniscient, I may be a chemist but chemistry is a huge field and I am not a petro-chemist.. so there are limits to what I can describe/understand..if there is a Petrochemist on the board please chime in as well.. )

There are two major (and one minor) causes of degradation of a refined fossil fuel such as Gasoline.

Oxidation: The Oxygen in air is actually a pretty aggressive chemical. Any fuel tank open to air, such as in vehicle tanks and vented Jerry cans will suffer some oxidation of its compound.
Fuels can burn, this burn is a form of oxidation. So anything thats useful for burning can generally oxidize in solution as well.
Evaporation: Every Hydro carbon fuel can evaporate. Gasoline is made up of many different kinds of hydrocarbons. some are shorter chained (smaller) than others. Smaller molecules generally evaporate faster so gasoline that is open to air will progressively its lighter fractions and retain its bigger fractions.. In turn this will make it less flammable and depress its flashpoint. Once the flashpoint drops below a certain level combustion in a fossil fuel engine is either not possible or only with difficulty and problems
Phase Separation: This is really only an issue with fuel that has Ethanol mixed in.
Ethanol usually mixes just fine with Gasoline.. but its hydroscopic.. so it attracts water... To a point that's good because free water from condensation in the fuel tank or other sources will generally be dissolved by the Ethanol fraction and not impact the fuel. This also means you really never need to add "fuel dryer" in the winter .
But it also becomes a problem when the fuel stands for a long time especially if its open to air.... as the Ethanol fraction will keep attracting water until it eventually becomes saturated.. then it will "want" to seperate from the gasoline to attract more water and form a pure (ish) layer on the bottom of your fuel tank. This is bad because the water fraction can become quite high in this layer which is very bad.but even w/o that near pure Ethanol is bad for fuel lines gaskets etc .. at least in those vehicles which are not E85 rated (and thats most).

How to prevent fuel degradation:
Oxidation in fuel is a free radical chain reaction. The way fuel stabilizers work is by injecting chemicals that serve as free radical traps and thus stop the free radical chain. This is what StaBil and Pri-G purport to do.
The Evaporation of light fractions is much harder to control
I imagine some compounds could increase surface tension , but that may also impact combustibility..another method is to simply add light fractions as part of the stabilizer. I know StaBil does not have a lot of light fractions and they claim to work via free radical capture.
I would be surprised if Seafoam does free radical capture.. but it does a lot of light fractions.
Speaking of which the only way the "refresh" oil is via adding light fraction.
Seafoam can do that to a point so can toluene , acetone if mixed with old gas and similar lighter hydrocarbon fractions.

I am very uncertain how Pri-G could do this w/o a large amount of light fraction solvent for its active ingredient (which must be based on free radical capture)

Couple other thoughts:
When you are in a survival situation + you can drain the bottom of a tank to get rid of a seperated phase that would leave u with the main fuel. If this was open to air it will have a) lost its light fraction and b) from oxidation will have undergone some chemical changes.
I do not know how to do anything about b) but you can address a) via adding painthinner, isoheet, heet, toluene and such to the old gas.
For most engines (unless too much time has passed) you should still be able to concoct a combustable mix in this fashion.

Wow that was great information! Now i understand what is going on chemically better. So i have been for some time now pooring 5 gallons of gas into a tank with a round bottom and a drain (old air compressor tank) then i add 2 liters of water, stir it up and let it sit. Once the water and ethanol separate at the bottom i drain it off and im left with non ethanol fuel. It works great in my engines and customers engines. But i wonder if the fuel that is left has changed more than just the ethanol being removed?

 

[Redbeard]

No offense taken at all Sir.
I value your experience highly and read your comments w/ great interest.

I just cannot explain the "refreshes the fuel" of PRI-G with what I know of organic chemistry and combustion.
I looked at the SDS of both PRI-G and StaBil and both have a large light fraction solvent and then some active ingredients. StaBils are not described but I suspect its amines just like PRI-G (which does list them).

I don't know either, and i have never seen another product do that. I would be very interested to find out though and i wonder if the octane rating is effected. I would imagine so but it's not enough to notice in the engines performance.

 

[Rick]

Most but not all of the Ethanol will be removed this way.
Ethanol is not really as bad as PPL say.. its primary threat is phase separation when saturated w/ water (which is what you are doing).
And of course lowers energy content (MPG) a bit..
But it also gives a tremendous benefit.. When the fuel is not excessivly aged it will keep your fuel system bone dry.. no need for Heet or Isoheet in winter..
...

With your method..The longer you let the mix sit the purer the remaining gasoline will be (it will never be 100% water free or ethanol free though..
There is residual some mixability of these.. its just that its small..just most of it will be gone.. the longer it sits the more will be gone)

 

[Redbeard]

Most but not all of the Ethanol will be removed this way.
Ethanol is not really as bad as PPL say.. its primary threat is phase separation when saturated w/ water (which is what you are doing).
And of course lowers energy content (MPG) a bit..
But it also gives a tremendous benefit.. When the fuel is not excessivly aged it will keep your fuel system dry.. no need for Heet or Isoheet in winter..
...

With your method..The longer you let the mix sit the purer the remaining gasoline will be (it will never be 100% water free or ethanol free though..
There is residual some mixability of these.. its just that its small..just most of it will be gone.. the longer it sits the more will be gone)

So i replace a pile of diaphragms and and seals on small engines that run ethanol fuel. Correct me if im wrong but that is due to the ethanol separating from the fuel and sitting in the carb? And thanks for the info!

 

[Rick]

So i replace a pile of diaphragms and and seals on small engines that run ethanol fuel. Correct me if im wrong but that is due to the ethanol separating from the fuel and sitting in the carb?

Not exculsivly.
Ethanol also is a great solvent.
We use alcohol to clean grease right?
grease is a hydrocarbon ( or course I simplify, its a lipid ,but it is mostly kinda a hydrocarbon, a carbon chain molecule)

Many automotive seals (especially older ones) can get affected by the Ethanol (or Methanol or MTBE) because they are also carbon chain molecules.
Keep in mind...almost anything can and does dissolve most anything else.
This is very counterintuitive but true nonetheless.

The only difference is the degree, if a seal is an environment it is designed for no big deal the rate of dissolution will be infinitely less than needed to create a problem.

But some seals are not designed for an alcohol environment. The alcohol is literally dissolving the seal away in a tiny amount every time engine runs.

Even pure gasoline will do this.
Only the rates are different as for pure gas the rates are infinitesimally smaller.
heck even water will do this...

It just takes so long with some fluids it doesnt become an issue until long after what would be a useful life of an engine.... just to make up a number maybe 300 years of runtime...
So for a fluid where it takes that long to dissolve seals.. people will say "fluid X is fine with seals".. or even "X is good for seals".

when its faster than this rate were we start noticing it, we say "Y is bad for seals".
Other Oxygenates have similar issues. ..its not always just the Ethanol (but then, often it is)

 

[gumpy]

I'm sorry guys, but all this is beyond me. If I want to go somewhere, I go. I change oil when appropriate and run reg gas. When or if it snows, I stay home! I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything you know.

 

[SheepDog]

Gumpy, I'm with you. when the roads are a mess some of the drivers know what they are doing. I can drive in anything but sloppy roads don't allow me to get out of the way of stupid people who don't drive well.
As far as the chemistry is concerned, I have a little background. I know that six months before alcohol was added to our fuel the manufacturers started using different materials in fuels system in cars and trucks. That being said I have three vehicles that were made before 1974 and I run 10% ethanol in all of them and have for all the years I have owned them. The first one is a 1966 Ford with a 289 engine and I have have driven it for 37 years. I have not had to replace any fuel system components in all that time other than the fuel pump once just after I got the car. The metal lines and rubber hoses are all fine. Before I started tearing it down to make a hotrod I had put 100,000 miles on it myself and broke a main bearing cap - that I epoxied together and put back in with new bearings. I ran it that way for several years without any issues. I usually have no problems with mechanical things and can repair most anything that's not grenaded into pieces. As far as the 10% ethanol in the gas goes it doesn't present problems with automotive fuel systems. It does cause problems in two cycle engines primarily because people let them sit and the alcohol attracts water to the needle and ball bearings that support the connecting rods and crankshaft. Fuel that sits in a carburetor of a two cycle is in such small quantity that the higher volatiles evaporate away leaving a shellac like substance mixed with the alcohol. Water is pulled in and it forms a base that eats away at the aluminum. The residue from this action is an aluminum salt that gets into and plugs the passages of the carburetor. They blame this on the fuel which is only part of the cause. If the fuel system is bled dry and oil is misted into the fuel system (which is what happens when two cycle engines run the fuel/oil mixture without alcohol) the system is protected from oxidation. If the fuel system is just bled dry the water can still get into the carb and cause the reaction that make the aluminum salts. It is the water that causes the problems and the alcohol, being the excellent solvent that it is, removes the oil film from the parts. There is an oil made for 10% ethanol fuels that leaves a bit of residue after the alcohol evaporates that cures most of the problems.

Methanol will dissolve fuel lines and diaphragms made of neoprene but Ethanol will not - well not in the short term anyway. The neoprene fuel lines in my old cars has been fine for a very long time. I do keep large fuel filters in place to capture the material that is cleaned out of the fuel system but I have not had to change them but every couple of years which I consider normal maintenance. I have only replaced the one fuel pump and I have had no valve recession or abnormal valve seat wear. I did build transmissions for all of them but I like my modified automatics over the stock units. The front suspensions and steering have been rebuilt but then the cars all have well over 100,000 miles on them. The timing chains were replace when the wifes car slipped one and I did a valve job to replace the bent valves (that I caused) and had the exhaust seats replaced with hardened seats. The factory seats were fine but if you grind them you lose the work hardening. It was a risk I didn't need to take. Mine is still running with the factory valve seats.