Shed recommendations for submersible pump & water well

[zannej]

I already mentioned the situation with my pump needing better power surge protection & maybe a backup battery of some sort. I would also like to replace the existing steel shed with something better insulated & slightly larger.
The steel shed is rusting on the bottom where it attaches to the foundation. It has holes where the horse kicked in the corner & the doors are broken bc the cow leaned against it and rubbed her fat behind on it (I think she was trying to scratch an itch). The walls have bent in a bit & it's rather flimsy for a steel structure. Since it has no doors, wasps & hornets like to build nests inside.
I don't want another steel shed-- that one was a total pain to put together in the first place. (There's a reason the employee that delivered it said "You're putting this together yourself? Good luck with that!"). It acts like an oven in the summer & doesn't stay warm during winter. So, I want something we can put a fan in to blow out the heat & circulate the air better.

I'm sort of leaning toward one of those plastic units that snaps together. It will have to be roughly the same height (at the center peak at least) as the old shed as well as about the same width, but I want it a little bit deeper to give more room to access the pump & maybe to install a water softener.

I've considered the wooden options as well (the original shed was wooden but the tenants wrecked it). I think the plastic ones are cheaper & easier to put together, but I'd like some suggestions/input.

Pros of plastic: easier to put together, waterproof, better insulation than metal, cheaper than metal & wood (at least from what I've seen)
Cons: Flimsier than wood, can melt from too much heat (like if a heater got placed too close to a wall), can't nail stuff to it

Pros of wood: Sturdier, better insulation than metal, can nail stuff to it
Cons: Not waterproof, more expensive.

I need to get the measurements of my current shed at some point, but the idea is to keep the same footprint on the front and sides but extend the shed back a bit more to hang over where the foundation was placed. If I did this, would I need to pour more concrete for foundation, or could I use paving stones/blocks?

Crappy sketch of the shed: purple is the foundation perimeter, yellow is the existing shed walls, green is where I would want to expand to. Maybe about 3ft overhang minimum. (Could I use landscaping timbers for support instead of paving stones?)

 

[joel]

For my well I have a 48" X48" X48 inch box, with a removable top & a light bulb to keep it at 40F in winter.

 

[Supervisor42]

Yes. For a well, the roof needs to be able to pivot on hinges to vertical or be able to be unbuckled and lifted off.
In the old days, this was called "the pump house".
Nothing worse than having to destroy one to be able to do work 'down the hole'.
Think flip-top.

 

[SheepDog]

Just my opinion here but a well built wood shed will out last any metal or plastic shed.
Expanding the foundation may not be that difficult. I am assuming that it is just a slab that sits at ground level.
You can use those pyramid shaped foundation blocks buried to the same height as the existing slab. Then you can run pressure treated 2x's to extend the base. (you can add up to 5' using 2x4's on edge) If you build with 2x4 studs and roof then you can add R19 or better insulation and heat it with a single 50 watt heat lamp placed in the middle of the ceiling. Bugs are always going to be a problem but you can paint it with a wood preservative that also deters bugs.You may not want a floor so put some diatomaceous earth around the base - outside and inside.
I could be convinced to draw the plans up for you and put together a bill of materials and a cut sheet. No fancy cuts and just wood, insulation and a bit of roofing. I do have some experience as I designed and built the A-frame that my brother is living in and both my shop and garage.

 

[backlash]

I don't have an actual well house but I call the building the pressure tank is in the pump house. It's about 10X12 and provides a lot of storage. It's well insulated and has a good roof. The temperature stays pretty consistent year-round.
I would not waste my time and money on a plastic building. I would build a wood frame building and make it big enough to use for storage even if I had to build it as I could afford the materials.

 

[Caribou]

I'd use a pressure treated wood bottom plate at the minimum with tarpaper between the plate and the foundation. Pressure treated studs will make it last much longer. Treated plywood sheeting and a metal roof should make it the last pump house you make. If critters are a problem then you might want to consider a 2X6 wall.

If all you want is added roof space then you should be able to cantilever the roof 3' or 4'. For added interior floor space I'd increase the foundation.

Sounds like the third time you've built this shed so perhaps spending a few extra bucks makes sense.

 

[The Lazy L]

Submersible water well pump doesn’t need protection from freezing weather.

 

[joel]

Submersible water well pump doesn’t need protection from freezing weather.

True, but the PVC pipe & tank does, that why I have a lamp that comes on at 40F, to keep the pipe from splitting.
I have a removable roof, so I can replace the pump.

 

[The Lazy L]

True, but the PVC pipe & tank does, that why I have a lamp that comes on at 40F, to keep the pipe from splitting.
I have a removable roof, so I can replace the pump.

Ahh I understand now. My pipe is buried under the frost depth and the expansion tank in the house basement.

OP has a house on a slab?

 

[Spikedriver]

I would NOT use plastic in a location where livestock will be near it. Plastic gets brittle in cold temps. Build a simple wood structure with heavy foam or fiberglass bat insulation. Put tin on the roof, some cheap vinyl siding on the walls, and you should be good to go...some Tyvek wrap under the siding is a good idea for wind proofing as well...

The best solution is a well pit. This is how both wells on our farm are constructed and freezing is a very rare problem. It only happens if there is a strong wind that sucks the heat out of the pit. It's easily countered by putting straw bales over the top or by putting a 60 watt light bulb in the pit. The light can stay on all winter for just a few cents a day in electric cost...

 

[joel]

I have a well 400 feet from any house, with an outlet for the garden.
A water line that cross my land to my sisters home, because she can not aford a new well & the 3 grown men who could, will not put one in.
The three men our brother who live there & her two sons who should be taking care of their mother.
That how the house got plummed when their well went out, it was my mother house & I took care of her.
I even believed my brothers when they said they would repair/ drill a well in a year or so.
That was ten years ago & no well or repair old pump as of today.

 

[Cnsper]

Sounds like you have the same setup we had growing up.

Grandpa built a standard shed but directly over the well he built like a chimney so he could put a flat removable roof so that the pipe could be pulled up through it.

Shed was insulated and because the pressure tank was in there it stayed cool in the summer and was heated with a 60 watt bulb. This was in western Washington.

We had a box in there with sand that was used to store potatoes and carrots over the winter.

Stick built is the way to go.

 

[zannej]

Thanks for the recommendations. I think we could probably do the pyramid blocks (that's what my house is on) & extend some pressure treated ground rated lumber.

To clarify: The foundation is not quite a slab because it is sort of hollow in the middle. It's a perimeter sitting underneath the structure because we didn't want to cover over any of the water pipes in concrete. It's several inches thick. Using diatomaceous earth is a good idea. We have a bag of it somewhere. The floor inside will be dirt like it currently is but I might have a little flooring in some spots where there are no water pipes. It would be waterproof flooring though. Only livestock we have around now are the two cows. The old horse died a few years ago. They had some nicer wood sheds for sale at the big box stores but they do not install them. Only ones they seem to install are the metal ones & I don't want to go with metal again.

Anyone know of another place that sells sheds & installs them for a decent price? I'm not sure if we could remove the old one ourselves at this point though so price would need to include removal of old unless we found a way to temporarily cover everything while waiting for installation. But, it was a pain to install so would likely be an equal pain to remove. My father was still around when we put it up & he was good at stuff like that but he's since passed away so it's harder to do things without him. My brother is completely inept at any sort of DIY stuff. I've got knowledge on how to do things, but lack the physical strength and ability to do a lot.

Editing to add: I wonder if it would be easier to just build a new shed ourselves. I should have enough tools in the workshop. We can get the framing put together, buy some plywood, house wrap, insulation, etc, get metal roofing, cut a hole for a vent fan of some sort up high on the wall.... I'd have to price out the lumber & get my best friend to help me. I wonder if 2x4s would be sufficient or if I'd need 2x6s.

Edit2: Can't sleep bc my stomach is acting up. Saw this on Amazon and wonder if it's any good https://www.amazon.com/2x4basics-90192MI-Custom-Shed-Peak/dp/B000E3XNC0/

 

[zannej]

So, I'm looking at the instructions for the shed kit & It looks like if I miter cut stuff at 45° (I'm guessing on the angle here), I could put something together without the kit-- but the kit might make things easier. It says it needs 2 kits for the size I want. I plan to add a gable fan to push hot air out so I would have to modify the design to get it centered. I'd accomplish that by adding a 2nd horizontal piece up higher on the back & shortening the center vertical piece. I would then add 2 vertical pieces on either side to make a frame for the vent (the one I'm considering is 12x12). Below that I would build a frame for a window & put in a cheap shed window to add some natural light during the day. Additionally, I am thinking of getting a solar powered light to put in for when the power is off.

The window I want to use is 14"x21" & people who installed it said the 16" on center works for side to side. It has a nailing flange.

I need to figure out what sheet siding to get. I've narrowed it down to 2.
LP SmartSide SmartSide 48 in. x 96 in. Strand Panel Siding-27874 - The Home Depot has a 50yr limited warranty & costs $31.98. There are more of them in stock than the other option.
OR
James Hardie HardiePanel HZ10 5/16 in. x 48 in. x 96 in. Fiber Cement Sierra 8 Panel Siding-9000523 - The Home Depot 30yr limited warranty $32.98 but rated for hot humid stormy climates. It is hot & humid here & we get a lot of rain.

Pros of 1st option: longer warranty, $1 cheaper, more in stock.
Cons: Not sure how it rates for humid/hot climates. Company is from Louisiana so is less likely to be reliable.

Pros of 2nd option: still a decent warranty, rated for hot/humid & stormy climates, not made in Louisiana & I've heard the brand name is reliable
Cons: slightly more expensive, shorter warranty than 1st one, and fewer in stock so I couldn't get them at once.

 

[SheepDog]

That kit doesn't come with lumber at all so you are paying $50+ for those cheap metal brackets. You will be better off building it from scratch and using construction screws instead of nails. A shed roof will be easier to open for access and save on materials. Hardie board is a good covering over ply wood or OSB but it is not a structurally good material for shear resistance. Use some 1/2" or 5/8" OSB for siding and then you can put the Hardie board over as a finish siding. I would recommend the smooth Hardie board and not the 8 panel. Lining up the panel pattern is a headache you don't need. I used the panel board on my garage and shop buildings to match the house and it became a nightmare before we were through.

 

[phideaux]

Built mine with cinder blocks, 6'x6' square x 5' tall walls , then built a A frame type roof using all pressure treated lumber and plywood , insulated that , attached that to blocks with blue concrete screws , removal is easy, and covered it with metal roof.
6 1/2 ft door, insulated.

I use a small electric heater ,at 750 watt setting, set to kick on between 34 and 36 degrees.
Always toasty .

Jim

 

[joel]

"James Hardie HardiePanel HZ10 5/16 in. x 48 in. x 96 in. Fiber Cement Sierra 8 Panel Siding-9000523 - The Home Depot 30yr limited warranty $32.98 but rated for hot humid stormy climates. It is hot & humid here & we get a lot of rain."
I had the lumber & I used hardie panels, because they do not rot, they have been in place for 10 years.

 

[SheepDog]

Joel,
All that is true. The panels are not made to replace shear panels for lateral loads. That is all I'm saying.
They look great after being in place over the OSB panels that are rated as shear panels.

 

[zannej]

Thank you very much for the input. I think I might just download the instructions & cut list (which is available in pdf format) & figure out how to tie things together without the kit. The instructions at least give me a general idea of how things go together. Making it customized will also let me make the roof angle different if I so choose. I might have it be a little less steep (which will mean taller walls).

I was thinking of using landscaping timbers or some sort of ground rated pressure treated wood for the base rather than the frame they recommended. I would also put horizontal 2x4s between all of the studs as extra bracing. On the outside I wanted to have hardyboard, between the studs I would have insulation, and I would have some sort of plywood on the inside walls to cover the insulation & add extra support for the structure.
I'm now thinking I could use some sheathing on the outside, put housewrap over that, and hardyboard over that.

For the roof I was thinking of going with corrugated metal like the kind my friend got on his roof. I'd have to put down plywood underneath if I wanted to add hinges somewhere to be able to open the roof up for access. Currently the metal shed has no opening for top access. I'd have to do something about the little shelter that overhangs both sheds though. I need to get pictures to show the situation.

I found some videos on how to build a shed from scratch that I've started watching.

 

[zannej]

So, I spent the day watching How To videos and picking up tips. Some ideas I'm noting that I think would work:

• Rafters slightly notched where they meet the tops of the walls to make them fit tighter
• Custom gusset plates w/ notch for ridge board & on one side have a wood block angled to line up with rafter angle (when sandwiched together there will be blocks on both sides)
• End gussets w/ single plate will have 2 wood blocks
• Rafters will be cut at proper angle to touch ridge board inside gusset plates.
• Additional horizontal braces between rafters will be added for support and to keep them spaced at specific distances
• Hurricane ties to hold rafters to studs
• Ground rated landscaping timbers for support of shed extension
• Metal brackets (sort of like joist hangers) to hold studs straight on bottom
• Custom double doors made of 1x4s, diagonal braces to hold them square, angle brackets to hold pieces together & also improve squaring, low expansion spray foam inside cavity for insulation & to bolster support, overlap of one door over the other, door stops built inside frame
• If height of walls permits: a rafter tie in the middle of the shed
• Gable fan https://www.amazon.com/Professional-Grade-Products-9800394-Ventilation/dp/B00M04B4EU/ (or something along those lines)
• Small window https://www.amazon.com/Shed-Windows-14-21-Playhouse/dp/B072555JDQ/
• Diagonal braces between studs as well as some horiztonal braces halfway up for more stability
• House wrap of brand/type undetermined at this point
• Hardyboard for exterior walls
• Reflectix insulation for inside walls & ceiling
• Possibly waterboard (waterproof drywall) over Reflectix on walls
• Metal roof (think I can find something inexpensive at local hardware store & use angle grinder w/ metal cutting blade to cut sheets to right size)
• Solar powered light to be able to see inside if we lose power https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07X7VBXYP/

Now my questions:
1. Can I put housewrap spanning the joists & braces or does it have to be over plywood or a flat surface? If it's the former, can I spray spray foam inside as filling?
2. Can I temporarily put flat panels over the cavity between studs & fill it with spray foam (scraping off excess that butts out on the other side or creating a sandwich w/ boards sort of like a frame for concrete where there's a "lid" to keep the top flat)?
3. Do I need plywood underneath a metal roof if the rafters are 16" on center & the metal is a decent gauge?
4. Would horizontal cross braces halfway down the wall be sufficient for extra support to prevent movement or should I include the angled braces as well?
5. Should I use a 2x6 instead of 2x4 for the ridge board?
6. What is the best way to tie the rafters to the ridgeboard before putting on the gusset plates (or would gusset plates be sufficient for tying them together)?

 

[Frodo]

...

 

[Cnsper]

You are way over thinking a shed. Yes osb or plywood on the outside. Spray foam then plywood on the inside. All that extra bracing is not needed.

I have no idea where you are but landscape timbers, even ground rated, usually rot fast. Might be because of extra water from being around the flower beds.

You said there is some concrete but you want the shed bigger. Just extend a foundation/footer around the perimeter and build on top of that. You don't need all those little metal brackets on the bottom of the wall either. You build the wall on the ground and then stand them up.

After the concrete you attach a pressure treated sill plate to it with concrete anchors. The walls are built then stood up and attached to the sill plate.

You don't need much of a pitch on something so small. I would probably just do a sloped roof where one side is higher than the other. I would put plywood under the tin and unless you are in a place that gets a heavy snow load, I would go 24 inch centers. You are only building a shed after all

 

[viking]

Around our area most people have their pressure tanks and electrical controls in their pump houses and often, if they had thought it out, have a water proof flap on the roof so that the pipes and submersible pump can be lifted out. So many of the pump houses that I have seen over the years have a lot of moisture or even leaks from the system, even as good as they may be put together. If I had to build a pump house around my well head, I would pour a concrete slab with a stem wall with a few drain holes to the outside and any studs and rafters would be pressure treated, insulate with spray foam or use foamular insulation, line the inside walls with plywood so that electrical controls can be easily mounted and if you live in freeze areas, have one or two light sockets. I have also had issues with wafer board in high moisture areas, that's why I always use a good moisture rated plywood, inside and out. because my well is so close to the road past us, I've even considered solid concrete walls, just in case of drive by idiot shooters. On the other hand, because I designed a gravity flow system, so far I've not needed the old well and as it is, it's too shallow and the first pumping is always bloody looking from the organic iron that's in the water.

 

[zannej]

I tend to overthink things. LOL.
(I also like excuses to sketch things in MSPaint)

Thanks for the feedback. The shape and slope of the roof is limited by another structure that overhangs. I can either do the same slope as the old one or reduce the slope. I'll have to measure.

I had wanted to avoid trying to pour more concrete but I think I can get a friend to help me if landscaping timbers will rot. I probably could use some french drains of sorts inside the shed. No matter what I do, something always drips in there so it's always damp.

I've done some more watching & reading and found out more about the whole "bird's mouth" thing and that I would need a ridge board that is at least a 2x6 instead of a 2x4 as the ridge board needs to be longer than the plumb cut.

Ok, so nix the angled braces idea- but I will still want horizontal braces halfway up the wall.
I don't want to toenail in the 2x4s near the bird's mouth bc the wood tends to split so I would use the braces on the appropriate hangers for them on the outside. I do get hurricanes so I will get the hurricane rated ones.


This last pic I found on the internet in a How To guide. I want some simple double doors where one overlaps the other when shut.


I'm curious as to what Frodo initially said. LOL. Something like "Girl, you're crazy!" ? LOL.

Found the block thingies: I would have to dig to bury them and then run pressure treated lumber through the grooves.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Common-7-i...5-in-x-10-375-in-Concrete-Deck-Block/50113084
I'm also thinking that I might stagger the roof so that the very front is at the right angle to fit under the sort of lean-to that spans both sheds and then have a higher pitched roof a bit behind that so I can have more roof space for rafter ties & some storage for repair supplies.

 

[zannej]

So, I went out and measured. Measuring tape didn't want to stay in place very well, but the front to back measurement of the walls was about 91" (not counting roof overhang). I had more trouble on the front because there is a big open pocket where the doors fell off, I was starting to overheat bc I do not do well in hot weather, and my measuring tape was only 8' long. So, I didn't get an exact measurement for the front but with the overhang it's ~10'. I will have to go back with a better measuring tape & temporarily tape it in place on the end to get a more accurate measurement.
Does the roof overhang get measured as part of the dimensions of the shed? It looks like it's basically 7-1/2' x maybe 9-1/2'? Worst case scenario, if I can't keep the shed entirely on the existing frame, I can bury some cinderblocks at the right height for any overage. Even increasing the shed to a 10'x10' would be an improvement, but I'm thinking 10'x12' might be good if I can find the right lumber.

Lumber available in stock that I can see is mostly 2x6x8 (for the ridge board) and there's some 2x6x12 and a 2x6x20. Not sure how I'd transport the 20' unless I got it delivered. Not sure if pine is a good type of wood to use though.

 

[SheepDog]

The longest unsupported span for a "load bearing" 2x6 is about 8 feet. A 2x8 can span 10 to 12 feet.
Since the ridge board is not a load carrying member (not even necessary) you could use a 2x4.
It will be difficult to open the top if you are using a gable roof. A simple shed roof can be hinged and tilt up to have access to the pump and pipe.
A typical "pump house" is kept small for thermal reasons. You really don't want a living room sized pump house. You only need a couple of feet of floor space around the pump and piping. In this case bigger is more detrimental than smaller and simplicity is better than complex.
It should be weather tight but it is not a "comfortable living" space.
Storage for tools and such in a pump house is a good way to ruin the tools to moisture and rust. If you need a place to store tools build a second shed for them with an air space under the shed and "conditioned" air inside. Make it your workshop and you have a place out of the weather to work all year. In that case bigger is better because you need to be able to handle plywood sheets and long lumber.

 

[zannej]

Thanks, Sheepdog. I wanted to keep stuff like extra pvc pipe and fittings. Was thinking of setting up a.water softener. Right now it is so cramped it's hard to move around inside to do maintenance.
I suppose I could alter the existing lean to that spans the 2 sheds to be able to have a lean to style roof on the shed. Still trying.to figure out how to make a hatch.
I'll have to post pics and sketches when my power is back.
For now I have a crappy shot after the hurricane.

 

[Peanut]

Just a thought... in south LA, I'd consider using cypress where ever possible if that is in your budget. At least for the framing. It can be pricey but it won't mold, rot or succumb to the year round high humidity of south Louisiana.

 

[zannej]

Despite living in Louisiana, there doesn't seem to be a good supply of cypress in my area. That tin hanging down was a problem. I had to push it back up because it exposed a junction box that was getting rained on. The junction box had the power for the pump.
I'm currently looking at replacement pump motors since I can't find the store I bought the pump from anymore (think it shut down) and all I can find are the motors. My friend said he can get it working with the right motor.

 

[zannej]

That dangling piece of tin blew off in the following hurricanes.

Since this thread was somewhat about my well situation, I will post here. I already knew that my pump's inlet is incorrect (pipe goes above the level of the pump). That can be fixed if I cut the pipes, raise it up, and possibly move/turn it. It's going to be a pain to do because the repair guy cut off & did not replace the shut-off and the branch immediately coming out of the cistern is full of couplings. In order to do anything with it, I would have to get inside the cistern to mess with the fitting (and I can't even get the lid up high enough for that). I'm not sure if he put the check valve in the right spot, but it's leaking at one of the joints where it touches PVC. I'd had a foot valve and shut off all ready to be installed on the day the guy came out, but my doofus brother refused to check to see when the guy got there (I was busy setting up Mom's computer) so no one came out and the guy got angry & just did a rough job-- despite my text messages telling him specifically what I wanted and the parts being in a bin on top of the cistern lid. He'd never given me attitude before-- always been super nice, but I guess he was having a bad day. Haven't heard from him or seen him since. Never returned calls after that so I had to get a friend to fix some things.

Anyway, it turns out my pressure tank isn't even remotely set up properly. I think my lines actually sort of bypass it. It doesn't have a tank tee. It doesn't have a pressure relief valve, it doesn't have a pressure gauge, and the PVC tee that branches from the pump's outlet is way before it reaches the pressure tank. Probably explains the chattering and other issues. Not sure if my pressure tank is any good anymore.

I wanted to get the least expensive version of the Cycle Stop Valve but when I asked questions about it, the CSV people kept trying to sell me a thing that costs over $300. Other people have said their customer service is great & have had good experiences, but I feel like I'm going to a used car lot where I tell them I want a truck & they try to sell me a sports car.

Anyway, I found a tank tee kit for under $80 on Amazon that includes a pressure switch. It's over $100 for the one that comes with additional unions and a ball valve. I'm debating whether or not it's worth it. I can find the ball valves just fine, but finding a potable water brass union in the right size has been a challenge.

Pipe coming out of the cistern-- ignore the cut off piece below. It was a scrap that didn't get removed but is not connected.

Check valve-- leaking from left side slightly. If I reconfigure things, I *think* I can get a ball valve after it in case of emergencies where I need to fix leaks or something.

PVC shut offs are for lines out to barn, house, and yard. One of them broke (you can see one of the wings missing). You can also see where the PVC comes out of the galvanized steel that comes out of the jet pump outlet. And you can see the vertical tee where it branches off to main water and to the pressure tank. I'm very tempted to gut some of those pipes & change them to 1" and have ball valves for shutoffs. I'm also tempted to change them to PEX instead of PVC, but it might be harder for them to turn if they aren't as rigid.

Another shot of the piping to the jet pump. I replaced the constantly breaking/leaking PVC with stainless steel. I would like to replace the outlet pipes with stainless as well. Does it look like the Galvanized is reducing to 3/4" PVC?

That pressure gauge is so old I don't know if it works anymore.

Different angle of the tee and how the pipe goes in to the pressure tank.

Jet pump specs (I need to get a photo of the pressure tank specs).

This is the tank tee kit I'm thinking of getting

or this one: