We talk of post crash and off grid, but what of refrigeration?

[Hardcalibres]

What happens if you have bad weather for a week?

That question is why I do not trust solar

When you are engineering a solar power system, you need to address "what happens when you get bad weather for a week".

In heavy overcast, good solar panels still produce about 10% of their rated full sun capacity. Large enough batteries will power low current devices for several days.

Pick fridge freezers that draw the least current (like Engels) and then combine them with a big enough battery bank with good deep cycle capability and a big array of high efficiency panels charging through an MPPT controller, that makes the most of what the panels produce.

My camper trailer can produce about 140 amps of current in full sun. That is charging about 1000 Ah of LiFePO4 batteries.

My Dometic and Engel fridge freezers draw about 10 amps combined.

The best way to test systems like that (and develop trust in them) is to actually go off grid for weeks at a time.

 

[Biggkidd]

When you are engineering a solar power system, you need to address "what happens when you get bad weather for a week".

In heavy overcast, good solar panels still produce about 10% of their rated full sun capacity. Large enough batteries will power low current devices for several days.

Pick fridge freezers that draw the least current (like Engels) and then combine them with a big enough battery bank with good deep cycle capability and a big array of high efficiency panels charging through an MPPT controller, that makes the most of what the panels produce.

My camper trailer can produce about 140 amps of current in full sun. That is charging about 1000 Ah of LiFePO4 batteries.

My Dometic and Engel fridge freezers draw about 10 amps combined.

The best way to test systems like that (and develop trust in them) is to actually go off grid for weeks at a time.

140 amps at what voltage? At 12 volts it's not all that much at 48 volts or especially at 120 volts 140 amps is big.

 

[Hardcalibres]

140 amps at what voltage? At 12 volts it's not all that much at 48 volts or especially at 120 volts 140 amps is big.

12V DC.

We had the option of 24 or 48V......but the Camper trailer has a lot of 12V appliances so we stuck with that.

140 amps will run the AC in the trailer on hot days (through a 12V DC 3000W mains inverter).

 

[Biggkidd]

12V DC.

We had the option of 24 or 48V......but the Camper trailer has a lot of 12V appliances so we stuck with that.

140 amps will run the AC in the trailer on hot days (through a 12V DC 3000W mains inverter).

I run a 8,000 btu AC on an inverter here as well it's only 2000 watts and runs the AC and the rest of the house at the same time which surprises me. I KNOW it's pulling more than the rated load, simple math tells me that. Fridge 6 amps 120vac AC 6.5 amps 120vac deep freezer 1.5 amps 120vac. Plus lights computer etc. .... Can't run the AC, microwave(1500w) or washing machine 8.5amps 120vac at the same time but you can use one of the three at anytime along with everything else.

 

[Frodo]

That's why solar alone is a bad idea. If you're going to be your own power provider you need at least three ways to make power in my opinion. Of course I've been living with solar and generators for the better part of two decades. I will be adding wind power in to the mix in the next year or two I expect. I'm also getting close to having a working Bio fueled mass battery thermoelectric generator. The more options you have the better in my opinion!

Sounds like a pocket full of cash to me

I wish you well,

 

[Hardcalibres]

I run a 8,000 btu AC on an inverter here as well it's only 2000 watts and runs the AC and the rest of the house at the same time which surprises me. I KNOW it's pulling more than the rated load, simple math tells me that. Fridge 6 amps 120vac AC 6.5 amps 120vac deep freezer 1.5 amps 120vac. Plus lights computer etc. .... Can't run the AC, microwave(1500w) or washing machine 8.5amps 120vac at the same time but you can use one of the three at anytime along with everything else.

Yep.

One reason that I chose to put my backup solar capability on my camper rather than my house is that the camper trailer industry has developed the lowest power draw versions of pretty much all appliances.

The other reasons are that in an emergency evacuation, my off grid solar power system would come with me.........and keeping the space that is cooled/heated small means the energy to do that is minimized.

It is a lifeboat.

 

[Aerindel]

Yep.

One reason that I chose to put my backup solar capability on my camper rather than my house is that the camper trailer industry has developed the lowest power draw versions of pretty much all appliances.

The other reasons are that in an emergency evacuation, my off grid solar power system would come with me.........and keeping the space that is cooled/heated small means the energy to do that is minimized.

It is a lifeboat.

My house uses camper water heaters, dishwashers, and gas range and water pumps for the same reason.

And speaking of solar power, I actually put a clip in my last video of my solar system on a cloudy day. 0.0 amps at 12 volts with an inch of snow....cleared off....0.3 amps.

This a 20 amp ,200 watt system......in the summer, on a clear day.

 

[Biggkidd]

Sounds like a pocket full of cash to me

I wish you well,

You know it's not really. Not if you add up monthly bills for power over the years of the system it pretty much balances out UNLESS you have a lot of generator run time.

 

[Hardcalibres]

My house uses camper water heaters, dishwashers, and gas range and water pumps for the same reason.

And speaking of solar power, I actually put a clip in my last video of my solar system on a cloudy day. 0.0 amps at 12 volts with an inch of snow....cleared off....0.3 amps.

This a 20 amp ,200 watt system......in the summer, on a clear day.

Yep.

When the light is poor and the panels are struggling, the angle of incidence becomes critical too. At higher latitudes, in winter, everything is working against solar power.

 

[Aerindel]

I agree with what you have stated but my original comment of yes I think it would work on a very small scale is also true. The run time would be super short and not hardly worth the effort! It is to small and compact to be useful IMO!

It works on any scale......but scale is everything....

The point is....a 9volt battery.....would never cool anything that size of what is shown in the video to that degree, with that kind of set up.

 

[Haertig]

Seems to me like the best plan for refrigeration in the post-SHTF apocalypse is to plan on doing without it. That would greatly simplify things.

 

[Hardcalibres]

Seems to me like the best plan for refrigeration in the post-SHTF apocalypse is to plan on doing without it. That would greatly simplify things.

What if you have to process the meat from a medium to large animal?

What if you are drinking reconstituted powdered milk?

What if you are catching fish?

What if you are in a climate where food spoils quickly?

There are primitive ways to do all the above......but most of those require a lot more time, effort and skill than refridgeration.

I assess that people surviving in a very severe crisis will be time poor. At the very least, the more time you have to stand guard, the safer you will be.

I will be using every bit of technology I can keep running to allow me to concentrate upon security.

 

[Haertig]

What if you have to process the meat from a medium to large animal ...

I didn't say it wouldn't be nice to have refrigeration. It certainly would. But you're probably not going to have it. That was my point.

 

[viking]

I wouldn't worry about refrigeration. You really don't need it. Of course, for almost 50% of the year a box on our porch can be a refrigerator.

What is it that everyone wants to refrigerate?

It's nice to keep my beer cool, but of course a small spring house with a looping path of water, in our case, from spring overflow, would do that job as well as keeping milk products cool. I haven't built a spring house yet but it's on my list of things to be done. Oh in case of SHTF long term food storage, I'm a huge fan of freeze dried and dehydrated foods. Solar systems have a life span and fuel will not always be available for generators and springs and streams may go away leaving water generating no longer working and so refrigerator may end up being good for converting to a smoke house.

 

[Hardcalibres]

I didn't say it wouldn't be nice to have refrigeration. It certainly would. But you're probably not going to have it. That was my point.

But I almost certainly will have it......because I have....like....prepared that capability.

.....and nice has little to do with it.

 

[Haertig]

But I almost certainly will have it......because I have....like....prepared that capability.

From your previous posts in this thread, is your solar powered camper with an efficient refrigerator in it what you are talking about? That should work for a while. But I think long term, all modern technology will stop working. Much the same as not wanting all your reference books to be stored on a Kindle that you planned to recharge with a solar panel. IMHO, that is a short term solution only.

 

[Neb]

There is a preserved homestead within walking distance from my place. It was the home of the Whiskey Rebellion. The springhouse is still intact that the homestead used. It is nice and cool on the hotest days.

While was developing my springs the last bit of excavation I did by hand. The water was so cold I frequently had stop and let my hand warm up. Spring water comes out of the ground cold!

So spring houses are a traditional answer to refrigeration.

Freezer would require ice.

Ben

 

[Neb]

There is a preserved homestead within walking distance from my place. It was the home of the Whiskey Rebellion. The springhouse is still intact that the homestead used. It is nice and cool on the hotest days.

While was developing my springs the last bit of excavation I did by hand. The water was so cold I frequently had stop and let my hand warm up. Spring water comes out of the ground cold!

So spring houses are a traditional answer to refrigeration.

Freezer would require ice.

Ben

Here is a picture of the springhouse.

Ben

 

[Supervisor42]

When you are engineering a solar power system, you need to address "what happens when you get bad weather for a week".

In heavy overcast, good solar panels still produce about 10% of their rated full sun capacity. Large enough batteries will power low current devices for several days.

This is important. We frequently have a full week with zero sun.
And you would need a ton of solar to fully charge the batteries that ran your needs for a week, with only the 3 days of sun before the next 'dark-days' hit.
I have been down here for 6 years, and still have yet to see a single panel on a roof .

 

[Patchouli]

The only way I want warm pickles is batter fried warm pickles. Otherwise, warm pickles are nasty. Thus, I’d need a cool place.

 

[dademoss]

I got nothin yet. There is a creek, only God knows what crap the house is built over. Might go up and look, they are digging footers for the house next door. Wont really matter, we do what we have to do. Naturally, that camera is offline, and needs a ladder for a reset

 

[Mountain trapper]

When you are engineering a solar power system, you need to address "what happens when you get bad weather for a week".

In heavy overcast, good solar panels still produce about 10% of their rated full sun capacity. Large enough batteries will power low current devices for several days.

Pick fridge freezers that draw the least current (like Engels) and then combine them with a big enough battery bank with good deep cycle capability and a big array of high efficiency panels charging through an MPPT controller, that makes the most of what the panels produce.

My camper trailer can produce about 140 amps of current in full sun. That is charging about 1000 Ah of LiFePO4 batteries.

My Dometic and Engel fridge freezers draw about 10 amps combined.

The best way to test systems like that (and develop trust in them) is to actually go off grid for weeks at a time.

That's true. That's why it's critical to have a backup generator for times of bad weather. We get a lot of fog, snow and overcast weather here in winter, which is why I have a 12kw diesel generator as part of my system. My system is completely automated. The generator will automatically start when the battery bank drops to 23.9 volts, and shuts off at Float, or 4 hours. Over a 12 month period the generator runs an average of 1 hour per day. I'm thinking of adding a couple more solar panels to cut that average even more.
We have 2 normal sized conventional refrigerators, 2 freezers, plus washer/dryer, 5 TV's, satellite, and all other modern electrical appliances. Most of the time we're using 6 - 8 amps of power. Higher when doing laundry or running the vacuum.

 

[montanabill]

Initially I will have my efficant ice chest running on 12 volts that I can charge several ways. I have enough for the first year or so then after that we shall see.
All knowledge will not dissapear instantly and forever. I can remember going with my dad to the train station where they iced refrigerated rail cars with ice to keep produce cold. We would pick up chunks of ice that had fallen on the ground and take it home. There we would put salt on it in the hand cranked ice cream freezer and use the thick cream from our family milk cow and fresh peaches (irrigated with a totally gravity irrigation system) and make the best ice cream ever.

In times past things were fresh, milk every day, bread baked every day, hog butchering done in the fall when the temps were cool enough to give people time to process.
Pepper was highly prized since it could hide the smell of food that had gone considerably past its best by date...

 

[Hardcalibres]

From your previous posts in this thread, is your solar powered camper with an efficient refrigerator in it what you are talking about? That should work for a while. But I think long term, all modern technology will stop working. Much the same as not wanting all your reference books to be stored on a Kindle that you planned to recharge with a solar panel. IMHO, that is a short term solution only.

I have monocrystalline solar panels that have been in service for 25 years. I have spares and new ones that are yet to start degrading.

I have some Engel fridges that have been working for more than 15 years.....I also have some quite new ones.

I have AGM batteries that have been in service for 12 years. I also have relatively new AGM batteries too.

The rated life of my LiFePO4 batteries (in charge/discharge cycles) equates to about 15 years life.

I have a lot of quite high quality MPPT controllers and a good collection of very heavy (B&S 2 and B&S 6) cables.

Engel fridges can actually run directly off a Powerfilm solar panel of the right size (but only when the sun is shining.....)

I am prepared to have refridgeration (and power for other 12V gear) for quite a long time.

 

[Canon29]

Freezing or refridgeration? We are talking about preserving things- which can be done in the absence of power pretty damn easily. Don't forget canning and all that- Smoking are curing meats for example is my go-to in the warmer months whereas the environment can act as a functional fridge/freezer in the winter- you'd be surprised what you can pull of with a dry bag in a river or a hole dug into the ground and covered with trapdoor insulated with moss. preservation needs are dictated by the timeframe of your needs aswell as the quantity (and quality) of the foodstuffs you are trying to preserve until they can be consumed.

I'm with @Sourdough on this one- location is going be the primary decider of methodology with the secondary decider being scale/timeframe.

---

@Hardcalibres I agree with your comments- though my experience having done more primitive living than most is that you are time-rich rather than time-poor- this is as far as i can tell the primary benefit to being resource-poor.

I understand that's not the point of your comment concerning time as it relates to primary security concerns- but I think if someone is actually going to choose the primitive route it really only makes sense to be done so as a consequence of the attempt to relocate somewhere that the secuirty risk is mitigated thereby (at least somewhat) removing the time constraint that security respresents. That's at least my primary motivation for learning primitive skills.

Otherwise why wouldn't you utilize every bit of appropriate technology you can get your hands on if your system is unrestrained by the logistical limtations of travel/location? Nobody (smart) is going to make primitive methods of doing much or anything their primary strategy in say suburbia/rural (and most elsewhere)- that wouldn't be good preparedness- locating oneself in that type of environment defeats the necessity/viability of primitive methods unless you make some sort of gigantic series of mistakes- which make primitive skills at best a worst case scenario backup plan imo.

 

[Sourdough]

In the "North" we would throw a quarter of Caribou or Moose up on the cabin roof and cut pine broughs to cover it, which discouraged the damn "winter" birds from getting at it. Yes, the edges would get freeze dried, but cut that off for trapline bait. Remember "Meat's Meat".

 

[Frodo]

Yep.

One reason that I chose to put my backup solar capability on my camper rather than my house is that the camper trailer industry has developed the lowest power draw versions of pretty much all appliances.

The other reasons are that in an emergency evacuation, my off grid solar power system would come with me.........and keeping the space that is cooled/heated small means the energy to do that is minimized.

It is a lifeboat.

Woooo woooo hold up a minute
Is your plan to load up and head out if whatever?
Man, with all sincerity,
We learned oddles and oddles when Katrina hit. Interstates turn into huge parking lots that is a thief’s paradise
Bridges are choke points where gangs operate

What we learned is get that trailer to where your go to spot is NOW. If you have to travel all you want on you is the bare minimum
My suggestion is build a barn on your prep property to store your preps in
Dig a cellar in the barn for your goodies
Park the trailer over the entrance to the cellar in the barn

 

[Tommyice]

The only way I want warm pickles is batter fried warm pickles. Otherwise, warm pickles are nasty. Thus, I’d need a cool place.

Early morning--took me a moment to realize you didn't post in the wrong thread.

 

[Frodo]

In the "North" we would throw a quarter of Caribou or Moose up on the cabin roof and cut pine broughs to cover it, which discouraged the damn "winter" birds from getting at it. Yes, the edges would get freeze dried, but cut that off for trapline bait. Remember "Meat's Meat".

In Colorado we used a wore out RV
Hung the meat inside and left the windows open.

 

[Cabin Fever]

A lot of talk of solar and batteries being used for for post-apolitical refrigeration. Even talk of using propane and fuel. My question is when society has collapsed and there is no supplier of parts or new batteries, let alone a way of getting them delivered to your homestead, how long do people expect to actually live this way with refrigeration? One year, 3 years, more?

My grandparents cooled food, and milk from their small dairy farm, all summer long with ice harvested from nearby lakes.