Home from the hospital......Covid Pneumonia

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Aerindel

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Yep. And it only takes one (1) person to give it to you.
Distance works, masks don't.
So I guess you've ripped the air filter out of your car too since you decided that the entire concept of filtration is a lie?
 

Aerindel

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A cotton mask is as good at stopping the virus as a chain link fence is at stopping mosquitoes.
I'm guessing like most people you are confusing sieving, with filtering and so totally misunderstanding how masks work.

But I don't wear a cotton mask either since better options are cheap and easily acquired.
 

Aerindel

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So for those who don't know, sieving is when you pass particles across a permeable barrier with holes of a certain size and everything smaller than the holes, falls through. These is what the often repeated 'mosquitoes and the chain link fence' story is talking about. A chain link fence could be considered a 'sieve' of a sort in that things like insects can pass through, while dogs cannot.

Filtering is when you pass particles through a permeable barrier that selectively stops particles with certain properties. That can be size, or chemical composition, or both. Unlike a sieve, a filter is not a sheet with holes in it, but a thick web of fibers. The distance between the fibers is almost always larger than the particles you are trying to filter out, but the thick web of fibers stops the particles from making their way through.

Imagine a basketball court filled with thousands of ropes randomly stretched across it at all angles. The average spacing between ropes is three feet, much larger than a basketball....but try to throw a full court pass through that space and your basketball will almost never make it. You could throw thousands of basketballs before even one manages to miss every rope and not get nocked down.

Or if we want to stick with mosquitoes.....fill the room with thousands of strips of sticky paper. You can have them three inches apart....the same spacing as chain link fencing....but maybe one in a thousand mosquitoes you let loose at one end of the room would make it to the other side.
 

Hardcalibres

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.......it is also worth mentioning that COVID-19 is a "wet virus".

That means that outside the body, it is almost always found encapsulated in some type of moisture. When an infected person "sheds" virus (mostly during respiration), they do not expel particles of individual virus out into the air - they expel droplets of saliva/sputum, each of which contain many viruses. These droplets are in aerosol form and also cover a wide range of sizes from less than 1 micron to quite a bit larger than 10 microns. The size of the droplets determines how long they "hang" in the air and how long it takes (and how far they travel) before they come to rest and adhere to some surface (or indeed get inhaled by someone else).

The size of individual COVID-19 viruses is about 0.1 microns - but as is detailed above, the virus is expelled in much larger droplets......so the process of decreasing the probability of breathing in suspended virus bearing droplets and decreasing the rate that (infected) people shed the virus has always been about filtering the droplets rather than particles the size of the virus.

I was very disappointed with people in general when they started believing and repeating that masks don't work. After all, who hasn't at some point in the their life, had someone sneeze or cough near them and physically felt moist droplets strike their arm, face or whatever. Do people really believe that those droplets they felt are actually individual microscopic viruses........like.......really?

Who hasn't seen real life doctors and nurses in operating rooms wearing those "cheap surgical masks", mostly to prevent them from exposing the patients to things the medical team breathe out?

The medical world has been wearing those masks for what.....a century or so........do people really think that those same masks "don't do anything"?

Masks of all types are imperfect - but so is everything in the real world. They say perfect is the enemy of good and it is also true that when people don't want to do something, they will highlight, exaggerate and focus the imperfections in whatever it is they are reluctant about.
 

Aerindel

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The medical world has been wearing those masks for what.....a century or so........do people really think that those same masks "don't do anything"?
Even forgetting medical uses for the moment....we have been happily using air filters, water filters, oil filters etc all our lives....until suddenly we get a pandemic and people suddenly stop believing in the very idea of filtration.
 

angie_nrs

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Who hasn't seen real life doctors and nurses in operating rooms wearing those "cheap surgical masks", mostly to prevent them from exposing the patients to things the medical team breathe out?
Unless I was taught wrong in nursing school, that's not what surgical masks are/were intended to do. The surgical masks were intended to prevent large particles (like hairs, dry skin, nasal particles) from dropping into a sterile field. It's the same reason the surgical team wears caps and beard shields for the men. Wearing them in absence of a sterile field doesn't do much good, especially when some people who wear them still don't wash their hands after going to the bathroom or before eating. I'm just saying.....there are more important things folks can do such as hand washing and concentrating on not touching their face to prevent getting sick.

Typically patients are loaded up with Abx before and after surgery to protect them from microbial infection. That is not the role of surgical masks. But, to each their own.....
 

Terri9630

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Most people (around here anyway) aren't wearing surgical masks anyway. They are wearing bandanas or cute little masks that have big gaps along the sides. Filtration only works when nothing can go around it, and when they are cleaned/changed regularly.
 

Neb

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Ughhhh...

These threads about mask vs no mask ... are of little interest to me.

But I am chiming in since I see two points that are missing each other.

The term "mask" is too broad for a discussion of do "They" work.

It depends!

A fishnet stocking mask doesn't work aside from protecting the wearer from the scorn of the mask Karen.

A PROPERLY FITTED N95 ON A CLEAN SHAVEN FACE can be effective.

I wrote/designed about a dozen applications for NIOSH (National Institute of Safety an Health a division of the CDC) with half of them used to evaluate the effectiveness if masks/breathing apparatus.

1597558847551 (2).jpeg

NIOSH set up a lab in Morgantown WV to test a critical aspects of face masks which goes by two forms that are effective the reciprocal of each other.

1597441695283 (1).jpeg

The Morgantown facility use salt water spray (notice the sodium flame photometer on the floor to my right) to test the ..

Fit Factor
And
Inward leakage

of masks. Salt is NaCl which are comprised of two of the smallest atoms is used because...

It will not kill test subjects
And
Being a small molecule it can sneak thru the smallest gap.

The fit factor tested not only the filter medium/fabric but also the seal around the edges where the mask sealed to the shape of the face. The malleable nose bridge is important.

But I have driveled on too long...

If tou want to protect yourself and not others get an N95 with the outlet vent.

If you want to protect yourself and others a normal N95 mask.

If you don't care to wear or don't want to wear a face diaper then don't.

Ben

Ben

T
 

Aerindel

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Yep.

I wonder how things had turned out if we had used the wartime powers act to ramp up production of n95s and set of mobile fit testing tents and handed out ten n95s to everybody. Among other things, it could have demonstrated in simple terms, that masks work to everybody who showed up. You can 'believe' whatever you want, but you can't argue with a fit test.

Oh well. Just a list of things that never happened.
 

angie_nrs

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Yes, N95's and sugrical masks are 2 different things. As a nurse I had to do the fit test with the N-95's twice per year to use in negative pressure rooms in case we ever needed to take care of a TB patient. I think we had a positive TB patient once or twice the whole time I worked there. Those masks fit very tightly, as I have said in a different thread somewhere. You will have the band marks across your face for quite a while after taking that mask off if it was fit properly b/c they are tight and uncomfortable.

Now.....how many people have you seen wear these masks correctly? Probably none, since I highly doubt anyone who even had a N95 mask had it fit tested. I only ever saw a handful of people even have the N95's at all, and those that did, did not have them on super tight like is required for efficacy. Also, those N95's pretty much sold out at the onset of this whole ordeal.

At the end of the day I guess you have to decide for yourself how fearful you are going to be of this virus. If an N95 makes you feel safer, then go for it.
 

Supervisor42

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At the end of the day I guess you have to decide for yourself how fearful you are going to be of this virus. If an N95 makes you feel safer, then go for it.
Yes, and since I have joined the 'herd', you have to ask yourself just how effective my mask needs to be.
Nobody can give covid to me, I have natural immunity. (Still waiting on my 'Done Had It' t-shirt)
I can't give covid to anyone because I won't have it again.
...So tell me again, why am I wearing a mask? To make others "feel" safe? :rolleyes:
 

Aerindel

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.

Now.....how many people have you seen wear these masks correctly?
Me, and my wife have been fit tested...and I have this weird hobby where I stock up on things like n95s so I had them from day one.

Well, I say n95 but I actually have and use much better gear than mere n95s.
 

Haertig

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Any opinions?
I would trust what your doctor - who is very familiar with your specific case right now - 100x more than I would trust anything "someone on the internet told me". No matter how well intentioned that internet advice may be.

Of course, what I am giving you right now, is "internet advice". But at least my advice is "don't put your trust in the internet", for what that's worth.
 

SheepDog

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The box that holds the masks has a disclaimer that states that the mask is NOT effective against viruses and other medical uses.
N-95 masks have an exhaust valve so it may protect the wearer but not others.
Standard cleanliness practices go a long way in reducing exposure to viruses that are not airborne like Covid-19.
 

Haertig

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I spent almost two weeks sick in bed at home before going to the hospital. I was diagnosed with Covid Pneumonia and spent three weeks under heavy oxygen 24/7. I am home now with oxygen. I am a crusty SOB, 74 years old
Your experience mirrors one of my friends almost exactly. Age, heavy O2, and everything. He has refused to get the vaccine after his hospitalization, depending completely on his natural immunity from having had covid. Except he is now eight months post-hospital. Still on oxygen, still unable to take more than a few steps without having to stop and rest and huff and puff to bring his O2 sat back up out of the low 80's. He is a slave to his pulse ox. Stairs are out. As is any place without hand holds to keep him upright while "wall walking". He needs places to rest every few feet, and friends to carry his things. He can't make it from the handicapped parking space to the door of the store, let alone go inside and walk around shopping. His life is reduced to sitting in a chair now. The 15 foot trek to the bathroom just about takes him down. I have no idea how he makes it to his bed at night - that has got to be at least 30 feet. Him moving from chair to chair is about as tough as one of us climbing Mt. Everest. I can't imagine he could live through another bout with covid, or much any sickness for that matter, but the decision to refuse vaccination is his to make.

I hope your outcome is better than my friends. And that you might consider some additional protection to make sure you don't have to go through this sickness again.
 

Supervisor42

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The thing to remember is that if 'natural immunity' worked 100%, so would the vaccine....which it doesn't. The very unfortunate fact is, covid immunity isn't complete, and is not long lasting either way you get it.
So, we will live in fear, and wear masks... forever?gaah
...Because some people aren't protected either way?
 

Aerindel

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So, we will live in fear, and wear masks... forever?gaah
...Because some people aren't protected either way?
Most likely, we won't wear masks and won't live in very much fear, we will just live shorter, sicker lives than we did before 2019. Its like living in the aftermath of nuclear war that doubled cancer rates. Not so many people die that it changes how people live, it just means on average, life is that much worse. The stats work out to about 10% more total death in the world, at current rates.

Only a few dedicated people will continue the fight despite overwhelming odds, hoping against hope to buy enough time until a miracle occurs. Everyday you don't die of covid, is another day for something to happen to end it.

My personal prediction is that covid will only end, when something new comes along, something so much worse that it creates herd immunity the hard way, by population reduction and the 'reward' for maskers will be that we will be experts at BSI and survive the next plague, while most others die. Call it the "Covid is Practice" strategy.

It is yet to be determined if anyone is fully protected, either way. No one has been proven 'immune' to covid, so far (that I am aware of)

Although scientifically, its highly likely there are some people who are, just as some people seem to be genetically immune to HIV, the plague, etc. In those cases, its a very small number, fractions of a percent. However, the fact that immunity has yet to be proven for covid, seems to indicate its also a small percentage of the population.
 
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Aerindel

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There is a crap-ton of stuff that I am not immune to, that could kill me. I am not looking to die, but I'm not going to go into hiding to prevent it either. Attempting such would be ultimately futile anyway.
Same, and yes, ultimately futile, as are all things. But we do what we can, because again, every day your alive, is another day that perhaps the fight is no longer futile. Its like playing musical chairs. Everyone has the same, bad, odds, except for the people who don't even play, who have it worse.
 

Hardcalibres

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The thing to remember is that if 'natural immunity' worked 100%, so would the vaccine....which it doesn't. The very unfortunate fact is, covid immunity isn't complete, and is not long lasting either way you get it.
Yep - a key detail about coronaviruses at the start was this:

About a third of common colds are due to coronaviruses (of lower lethality than COVID-19).

The indisputable fact that people do not become immune to the common cold, proves that natural immunity is at very best, short lived and temporary. It was always likely to be less than a year and potentially, only a few months.

COVID-19 was also inevitably going to mutate (if people failed to contain it and allowed it to spread to millions of hosts).........because all the other coronaviruses always have......

The fact that the most stated saying in the medical world was "there is no cure for the common cold", made the development of any 100% effective vaccine or treatment very challenging and unlikely.

If anything, I have been surprised at how effective the vaccines have been...........even with that falling well short of 100%.
 

Aerindel

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My wife, I who I will remind people, is a medical laboratory scientist, said the same thing.

I will always remember the night when I read the first report of 40 people dead from a new corona virus in china. When my wife got home I gave here the standard debrief from the day and told her 'Oh, by the way, 40 people are dead in china, they think its a corona virus."

And she said something like "A corona virus that kills people? ****, thats not good, corona viruses are hard to control"
 

Spikedriver

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My wife, I who I will remind people, is a medical laboratory scientist, said the same thing.

I will always remember the night when I read the first report of 40 people dead from a new corona virus in china. When my wife got home I gave here the standard debrief from the day and told her 'Oh, by the way, 40 people are dead in china, they think its a corona virus."

And she said something like "A corona virus that kills people? ****, thats not good, corona viruses are hard to control"
I thought the same thing when I first heard of it. "Oh, it's going to be like SARS and MERS, everyone will get scared but it will peter out and we will forget about it in a year. It will just be like a bad cold." Oops...

Yeah, it's like a bad cold. A pissed off common cold on steroids...
 

Hardcalibres

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I thought the same thing when I first heard of it. "Oh, it's going to be like SARS and MERS, everyone will get scared but it will peter out and we will forget about it in a year. It will just be like a bad cold." Oops...

Yeah, it's like a bad cold. A pissed off common cold on steroids...
Because of the passage of time, people think the Black Death arrived in Europe, killed a bunch of people and then disappeared.

But the reality is that the Black Death had been around in Roman and Greek times and then killed people in Europe between the years 1347 and 1859 - so that would be over about 500 years!!!!!

Historically speaking, pandemics tend to hang around..........even if many of the infected hosts don't.
 

Spikedriver

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Because of the passage of time, people think the Black Death arrived in Europe, killed a bunch of people and then disappeared.

But the reality is that the Black Death had been around in Roman and Greek times and then killed people in Europe between the years 1347 and 1859 - so that would be over about 500 years!!!!!

Historically speaking, pandemics tend to hang around..........even if many of the infected hosts don't.
Big difference here is, the black death killed around a third of the population of Europe. It actually changed the genetics of the continent. Unless Covid becomes something much harsher than what it has been, it will never reach that level...
 

Hardcalibres

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Big difference here is, the black death killed around a third of the population of Europe. It actually changed the genetics of the continent. Unless Covid becomes something much harsher than what it has been, it will never reach that level...
My point is that, it is early days for this pandemic......it could keep grinding away at the human population for years/decades and get up to deaths comparable to the Black Death......or it could mutate into something much more lethal, burn fiercely, and really change human behavior.......or it could mutate into something more benign and disappear like the Spanish Flu did.

But two years is actually a pretty short life for a pandemic - so this one still has the potential to run a while.
 

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