Agricultural water pumping

[Biggkidd]

Water pumping has been a source of problems around here ever since I moved here. First it has to come from the creek 175 feet below the fields. Second it has to travel about 2000 linear feet to get to the fields. I’ve tried a number of various pumps over the years. Third we need a fair amount of water just for the cows not to mention the other critters and the crops. So we need something that can pump at least 20 GPM and 50 would be better. Just bought a new roller pump less than two years ago and it blew apart a few weeks ago. Pumps with that kind of flow and enough pressure to get it there are NOT cheap!
This time I’m upping my game of course this means nearly an entirely new build. I’ve been using a Honda GC 160 to power the pump. Sadly that’s not going to be enough engine for the new pump I ordered last night. It’s an Ace FMC-150. It can use 10hp at max pressure and volume. So I’m going to couple it with a 13 hp Honda clone I’ve had sitting around. They claim it can do up to 130 psi and up to 135 GPM through a 1 1/4 pipe. Unfortunately I only have 1 inch pipe so I’ll have to neck it down to that which will restrict the flow a fair amount. If I can reliably get 20+ GPM to the field for more than two years it’ll be a win. I must admit I am hoping for more like 40-50 GPM and that it lasts until long after I expire! lol It’ll take about 75 psi just to get the water to the field so that should leave me with around 50 psi of working pressure to run sprinklers and such.
Hopefully this will be the last big pump I ever need to buy. But just incase it doesn’t work out as planned I am hoping you all have other options I’ve missed.

 

[Biggkidd]

I may end up shifting from the new Honda clone engine to a used 10hp generator engine since I just found these.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/204458019747Any others that make stuff out of old broken stuff. Lots of old generator engines sitting around that are still good after the generator head quits. They now make and sell an adaptor to change that funky press fit tapered shaft to a straight 1 inch keyed shaft. I have an offer in to buy a few...

I think I may have damaged my paypal account in the last 24 hours. Lord knows I've been BUSY spending dollars.

 

[Biggkidd]

Is anyone interested in seeing the water pump build? If so I can get a few pics as I do it. It'll be interesting to see how many GPM I can get under my circumstances. I'm hoping for at least 40 GPM and to never have pump problems again.

Question for you tech guys this pump calls for 5200 RPM. The closest pulley ratio's I was able to find pushes that to 5257 with the engine at full throttle. Will that additional 57 RPM cause any issue? Although I'm hoping I can run it at about 3/4 throttle, running engines wide open really bugs me!

I wonder just how much load the pump is going to put on the engine too. The manufacturer says it can use up to 10 hp. I know from experience a 5hp engine doesn't last long trying to carry a constant 3 hp load.

 

[Neb]

Is anyone interested in seeing the water pump build? If so I can get a few pics as I do it. It'll be interesting to see how many GPM I can get under my circumstances. I'm hoping for at least 40 GPM and to never have pump problems again.

Question for you tech guys this pump calls for 5200 RPM. The closest pulley ratio's I was able to find pushes that to 5257 with the engine at full throttle. Will that additional 57 RPM cause any issue? Although I'm hoping I can run it at about 3/4 throttle, running engines wide open really bugs me!

I wonder just how much load the pump is going to put on the engine too. The manufacturer says it can use up to 10 hp. I know from experience a 5hp engine doesn't last long trying to carry a constant 3 hp load.

I am interested in pictures. I can add little since I didn't study mechanical engineering. Generally I would want more power available than what what will used.

I am curious about how you plan to align the shafts.

Ben

 

[Biggkidd]

I am interested in pictures. I can add little since I didn't study mechanical engineering. Generally I would want more power available than what what will used.

I am curious about how you plan to align the shafts.

Ben

Same way I've aligned pulleys all my life when building things, by eye, If I'm doing something critical or weird / odd I sometimes use a piece of string. Low tech still works! lol

 

[Neb]

Same way I've aligned pulleys all my life when building things, by eye, If I'm doing something critical or weird / odd I sometimes use a piece of string.

Out of my area of expertise.

Aren't belts rated by HP?

Ben

 

[Biggkidd]

Out of my area of expertise.

Aren't belts rated by HP?

Ben

You got me. I'm sure there's a guideline of some sort, I generally go by gut feeling. In this case I'm using a pair of B belts. AKA Heavy industrial belts.

 

[Bacpacker]

Yeah we need pics.
I can't imagine 100 rpm up or down would have a big effect one way or the other. We use some water pumps at work, but aren't going anywhere near 40 gym. So I am no help for you

 

[Biggkidd]

I had a trash pump that did like 9000 gallons an hour (150GPM) at low pressure through a 2 inch line.

This pump supposedly can come close to that through a 1.25 inch line at around 100 PSI. I already have 1 inch line so that's what I'm running.

 

[Caribou]

I had a trash pump that did like 9000 gallons an hour (150GPM) at low pressure through a 2 inch line.

This pump supposedly can come close to that through a 1.25 inch line at around 100 PSI. I already have 1 inch line so that's what I'm running.

With that amount of run, and a small line, expect substantial like loss. You'll know the first day if it is going to work for you.

 

[Biggkidd]

With that amount of run, and a small line, expect substantial like loss. You'll know the first day if it is going to work for you.

I'm hoping for around 40 GPM through the 1 inch line and with the elevation change and length of run.

I will have to admit the roller pumps I've been using for the last decade provided their rated GPM at the end of that crazy run! Amazed me.

 

[Biggkidd]

Grrr this pump fiasco is killing me!
Because they don't actually have the pump in stock they said 6 weeks for delivery. Obviously I can't wait 6 weeks so I tried everywhere that "carries" these pumps no one actually had one in hand. So I went back and ordered a more expensive lower output pump they supposedly do have on hand. Problem now is a bunch of the parts I already ordered are now useless and I need to order the correct parts for this setup. UGH What a pain in the rear!
Link for the pump I just ordered.

https://www.sprayersupplies.com/fmc-ace-pumps-a7183529

In other news I may have found a helper for around the farm. Supposed to try and meet up with her tomorrow or the next day. I'll let y'all know more when I know more. lol

 

[Biggkidd]

They got the new pump shipped today and it should be here day after tomorrow.

 

[LadyLocust]

@Biggkidd
I read your post a day or so ago and didn't really have anything come to mind, but just as I saw there was a new post - Whamo! It hit me - a thought
When we were up the river, we had rights to pump from it up to a certain amount. There was an embankment down to the river - a drop of about 15'. If the pump was up on the top, it struggled. If it was down near the water it did great. So what we discovered was they tend to be better at "pushing" water out than pulling water in. We later got a larger pump and set it up on a concrete pad and did it all snazzy. I don't know if that can help you in any way, but food for thought if nothing else.

 

[Biggkidd]

@Biggkidd
I read your post a day or so ago and didn't really have anything come to mind, but just as I saw there was a new post - Whamo! It hit me - a thought
When we were up the river, we had rights to pump from it up to a certain amount. There was an embankment down to the river - a drop of about 15'. If the pump was up on the top, it struggled. If it was down near the water it did great. So what we discovered was they tend to be better at "pushing" water out than pulling water in. We later got a larger pump and set it up on a concrete pad and did it all snazzy. I don't know if that can help you in any way, but food for thought if nothing else.

You are absolutly correct the pump is within 6 feet of the waters surface. It has to be that high to stay of the average flood plain in that spot. Flooded small engines are a pian in the rear bet you can guess how I know!

 

[Biggkidd]

Ches and I got the pump built. It's up the hill doing a break in run with no load right now. I'm hoping the foot valve shows up tomorrow before we have to use it otherwise we will have to rig it up with a 1 inch pickup line instead of the 1 1/4 it needs. Amazingly the 12+ year old, new in the box engine cranked on the first pull! I was shocked to say the least. Went ahead and used the 13hp Honda clone engine even though it's probably overkill for this pump. Certainly shouldn't be short on power!

 

[Neb]

Ches and I got the pump built. It's up the hill doing a break in run with no load right now. I'm hoping the foot valve shows up tomorrow before we have to use it otherwise we will have to rig it up with a 1 inch pickup line instead of the 1 1/4 it needs. Amazingly the 12+ year old, new in the box engine cranked on the first pull! I was shocked to say the least. Went ahead and used the 13hp Honda clone engine even though it's probably overkill for this pump. Certainly shouldn't be short on power!

Can't wait to see the pictures.

Ben

 

[Biggkidd]

They'll be coming, likely tomorrow night.

 

[Biggkidd]

Started pumping water at 12:45 we'll see how long it takes to fill a 1500 gallon tank at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle. Not sure exactly where I set it before hauling arse to make sure it was working! I'll post pics once I can get them emailed to my computer, takes a long while around here!

 

[Biggkidd]

The throttle kept pulling itself back so no idea on how long it takes or how fast it pumps. From the way it looks it's less than the old roller pump was! It also used 4-5 times the fuel! But that may have something to do with it sitting and running but not running fast enough to pump. I'll just have to wait and see how this shakes out I guess. It's also having to pull through an undersized intake pipe since the 1 1/4" foot valve got delayed in shipping. I hope switching from a 1" intake or suction pipe to a 1 1/4" speeds things up some.

Is there a size limit on photos or something? I can't get the pics to upload, might just be my crappy internet.

 

[Biggkidd]

There's a pic here. Only place I could get one to upload.
Off-Grid Living Group - Freesteading

 

[Neb]

There's a pic here. Only place I could get one to upload.
Off-Grid Living Group - Freesteading

Ben

 

[Biggkidd]

View attachment 121105


Ben

No idea why

 

[Neb]

No idea why

HCL will complain if I try to upload images with odd file extensions. I just downloaded your image (it is a jpg) and it posted fine using my smart phone and high speed internet.

Re: the pump

Looks like about a 1 to 1 pulley ratio. A 2 to 1 (motor to pump) will let the motor run slower and the pump faster. If the motor has enough power of course.

Ben

 

[Biggkidd]

HCL will complain if I try to upload images with odd file extensions. I just downloaded your image (it is a jpg) and it posted fine using my smart phone and high speed internet.

Re: the pump

Looks like about a 1 to 1 pulley ratio. A 2 to 1 (motor to pump) will let the motor run slower and the pump faster. If the motor has enough power of course.

Ben

The pulleys are sized to give the pump 5200 rpm the engine has plenty of power. It was meant to run twice the pump size but they were out of stock for another 6 weeks.

 

[lonewolf]

any of you heard of Ram Pumps? used to be all the thing on farms here at one time.

 

[Biggkidd]

any of you heard of Ram Pumps? used to be all the thing on farms here at one time.

Oh yeah not enough fall in the creek to lift 175 feet by ram pump.

 

[ssonb]

On a non positive displacement pump you need as large in diameter suction or intake that you can fit with no reducer. On these type pumps the impeller will "run away " from the intake flow if there is a restriction in line. The only thing supplying the water on the draft side is atmospheric pressure . the amount of available atmospheric pressure is dependent on height above the water surface and altitude.

 

[ssonb]

Sorry bigkid last night I just jumped into the conversation.
I am a retired FF/EMT and a trained fire pump operator ( I retired 16 years ago) so you will have to forgive me cause I am a bit rusty and way out of practice in figuring friction losses.
Those style pumps are the bread an butter of the fire service but the do have their limitations especially in the setting where there is no pressurized water supply.
As a rule of thumb you will lose ten psi of water flow pressure for approximately every 12 feet of rise, so if I was reading your situation correctly the pump was rated at 130 psi and you have a 175 foot rise that means .....
Oh heck , lets make it simple 10 ft of rise = 10psi loss so you have a shortfall of 50psi in pump performance to meet your goals and that does not take into account the Internal friction losses from the sides of the hose/pipe.
The internal friction losses in the lines are the easiest to improve.... Double the size/diameter you reduce the losses by a factor of 4 At the same pressure and volume. You are limited to the increase in pipe size by the volute diameter in your pump.

I have close to the same problem in the community where I live. The nearest water source that is viable for fire protection here is is a tad over 100ft down and 800 ft away so any fire in our neighborhood the FD will have to send at least two pumpers to get any meaningful water flow to the fire scene with one pumping water to another a few hundred feet away.
OH BTW ........ Merry Christmas.

 

[Neb]

Sorry bigkid last night I just jumped into the conversation.
I am a retired FF/EMT and a trained fire pump operator ( I retired 16 years ago) so you will have to forgive me cause I am a bit rusty and way out of practice in figuring friction losses.
Those style pumps are the bread an butter of the fire service but the do have their limitations especially in the setting where there is no pressurized water supply.
As a rule of thumb you will lose ten psi of water flow pressure for approximately every 12 feet of rise, so if I was reading your situation correctly the pump was rated at 130 psi and you have a 175 foot rise that means .....
Oh heck , lets make it simple 10 ft of rise = 10psi loss so you have a shortfall of 50psi in pump performance to meet your goals and that does not take into account the Internal friction losses from the sides of the hose/pipe.
The internal friction losses in the lines are the easiest to improve.... Double the size/diameter you reduce the losses by a factor of 4 At the same pressure and volume. You are limited to the increase in pipe size by the volute diameter in your pump.

I have close to the same problem in the community where I live. The nearest water source that is viable for fire protection here is is a tad over 100ft down and 800 ft away so any fire in our neighborhood the FD will have to send at least two pumpers to get any meaningful water flow to the fire scene with one pumping water to another a few hundred feet away.
OH BTW ........ Merry Christmas.

My notes say...

1 ft of head. = 0.433 psi
Or
100 ft of head = 43.3 psi

Ben