Ft Joe Solar upgrade project

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BBQJoe

BBQJoe

Void where prohibitied
Neighbor
Joined
Dec 10, 2017
Messages
468
Location
NW Arizona
You know, I should have taken before pictures, but just plain didn't out of excitement.

Originally, and for quite a few years, we have been using (4 )L-16 Trojan batteries. We usually get about 5 years out of them. We would probably have gotten longer out of them if we had had more panels to give them a good equalization charge every month.
We've been using a 3000 watt truckstop inverter this whole time, and it has done remarkably well.
We used a 50 amp RV charge controller.
We had four large panels that are probably around the 200-250 watt range.

Nontheless it has given us more than enough power for lights, computers etc all day long. But at night I live with a guilty feeling of possibly drawing too much out, so we generally run a 2800 watt generator from sunset to bed time, using about 20 gals of gas each month.

We decided to spend the money, and do an upgrade. We are upgrading from 12V to 24V.
I found some brand new surplus panels on CL.
(12) 285 watt panels $1700
We purchased an Outback 80 charge controller, that just about does everything for you, or is programed in to you likings. $500
A friend in the solar biz sold me a used, pretty honking large inverter, that also works as a charger when the generator gets started. $300. He got from a 5 year old installation where the guy upgraded from 24V to 48V.

The killer of course, is the battery bank. This one is used in a pallet jack, and is brand new (not refurbished)
We found this one commonly referred to as a 12-100-13. It has 12 2V cells, for 24V.
The seller guarantees 10 years minimum, and says he's seen people get as much as 20.
$3000.

uuprBMv.jpg


This is my Wife and daughter on the roof with the panels. (Well of course I'm up there!)
We have a square house. The panels we hinged to the block and then to the roof.

We decided to face 3 East for the morning sun, 2 West for the later afternoon sun, and 7 South.
The panels vary from 30º to 40º, giving us the best of all worlds.

Here's the battery. 1200 lbs.

mPKr46f.jpg



6V1DaUg.jpg


More pics to come later.
 
IMG_0387.JPG
Here's the battery shed, with battery, inverter, charge controller, and combiner box.
It went on line yesterday afternoon.
The battery read 25.2. We watched 3 movies, washed a load of clothes, both computers on, most of the lights
Went to bed around midnight.
The voltage was 25.2.

I'm going to really enjoy having a properly sized system for the first time.
 
Thanks Jim. To be honest, I haven't looked at the max output on the inverter, but just judging by the size and weight, I'm forced to assume it will handle just about anything we throw at it.
I are tickled pink.
Today we are moving and installing the old system to my daughters camper.
 
robin416 said:
Hmmm, posts like this will continue to educate me on what should probably be done right from the start.
Click to expand...
After years of messing around, I think I can safely say, go MUCH bigger than you think you require.
The panels, the inverter and charge controller, will probably last the rest of your life, as will the wiring and other install costs.

The battery is the heart. Do you want a great heart, or a crummy one? Which would you put in your body if you had a choice?
Make a good choice, and spend the money.
 
BBQJoe said:
The killer of course, is the battery bank. This one is used in a pallet jack, and is brand new (not refurbished)
We found this one commonly referred to as a 12-100-13. It has 12 2V cells, for 24V.
The seller guarantees 10 years minimum, and says he's seen people get as much as 20.
$3000.
Click to expand...

That right there is the definitley the heart of the system..

I wish I had one of vthem. I just bought 8 new 6 volt 230AH baterries , cost was $1000 .
Hooked up for 12v output gives me 920 AH's of power.

Does that big boy have an AH rating?


Jim
 
BBQJoe said:
The battery is the heart. Do you want a great heart, or a crummy one? Which would you put in your body if you had a choice?
Make a good choice, and spend the money.
Click to expand...

I know that it is not cheap to set yourself up with solar, but I see many systems that are minimal. I agree with you, "Make a good choice and spend the money." Do it right.

My 125 year old house is certainly under equipped with electrical outlets. My daughter's new place could stand to have had a few more.
 
When it comes to inverters most all of them come with two ratings, as do generators, short time load rating and constant load rating and when getting inverters or generators with lower wattage ratings you need to check on things you intend to run with them especially motors because they frequently have some very high amperage startup loads, often shown on their rating label as "Locked Rotor amperage", your inverter or generator needs to have the ability to handle a high amperage load for as long as it takes to get the motor to full RPM and that startup load may be twice as many amps as it takes a motor to run normally. Well pump motors generally have a high amp startup. I have a generator that says it is 8,500 watts but it's continuous watts are 7,500, my inverter is rated 4,000 watts continuous but it has 5,800 watts for a 5 second surge and 5,200 watts for a 30 second surge. There are formulas available on the internet for figuring minimum sizes you'll need for inverters and generators according to what you want to run with a standby system. I designed our solar standby system so that it can run two refrigerators, a freezer and a few LED lights. I have 20 6volt 205 amp hour batteries, series/parallel for 24 volts at 1025 amp hours, the solar array totals 1,560 watts, they will be controlled by a Morningstar MPPT solar controller. I'm running the solar array at around 72 volts to make up for any distance resistance loss between the array and the controller, the solar controller will handle DC voltage well over 100 volts and it has dip switches that can be set for different battery voltages. When dealing with DC voltages always keep electrical connections sized properly and as short as possible.
 
When it comes to hooking up batteries that alone can be a fairly expensive situation, some battery suppliers will build the jumpers and cables for you. I happen to have a friend that runs a generator shop and I bought terminal ends and a lot of used commercial welding cable from him as well as the use of a terminal crimping tool, thing is make sure to use the right size of jumpers and cables as some of the larger inverters are driven by some serious amperage, enough to do some heavy welding, the fuse I have from the battery bank is rated at 195 amps, a breaker switch could be used and usually they are rated at higher trip amps. As it is the charge system in our inverter is rated at 105 amps and the maximum continuous current input can reach 267 amps DC, that's nothing to take lightly, in fact when I have to wrench on battery terminals I insulate the wrenches or lay cloth around the tops of the batteries I'm working on as there is enough amperage available to melt the wrench in your hand, ALWAYS HAVE TOTAL RESPECT and ATTENTION when working around battery systems. One more thing, always have a good ventilation system close to the battery bank, the hydrogen they give off on charging and discharging is highly explosive, absolutely NO SMOKING and watch where you could make electrical sparks. I blew up the battery on my farm tractor, it was so loud that I thought that someone had shot at me, I blew it while I was welding a crack on the frontend loader frame. For venting fumes from the battery room I have a fan that keeps constant positive pressure in the room at all times and there are two vents to the outside on the wall behind the battery bank.
 
The battery I have is designed for a pallet jack.
I figure the amount of electricity it takes to lift a full pallet of say 1000 lbs and move it to the end of a warehouse just once, is probably all the electricity I would use in a average day.
A pallet jack on a loading dock will do this an untold amount of times per day.
So I figure I'm golden.
 
Also I have to admit, the whole amp hour thing is hard for my head to wrap around.
I've read many examples of amps, volts and watts using water as an example.
But the thing I don't quite get, is, is an amp an amp no matter what, or is an amp at 6volts lower than an amp at 24?
Is an amp hour at 12v less power than an amp hour at 24V?

If I have 900 amp hours rating on a 12volt battery, and 900 amp hours on a 24 volt battery, do I have twice the power?

I know, I know, I should have a better grasp of all this by now.
 
Amp is flow, voltage is pressure, but power is watts. Three different parts of the equation. Time is part of it too. 1 amp hour is one amp for 1 hour. 900 amp hours is 1 amp for 900 hours.
Your 900 amp hour 12 volt has (amps times volts = watts) 10,800 watts stored while your 900 amp hour 24 volt battery has 21,600 watts stored. That shows that the 24 volt battery has twice the power (watts) as the 12 volt battery.
That is a very simplified way to show the power of a battery. In reality if you have a 900 amp load on both batteries they will not last a full hour because the voltage will drop very fast at those loads. Amp hour ratings are usually a 6 hour rate for industrial batteries and an 8 hour rate for commercial (retail purchase) batteries. That means that the industrial batter can take a higher load for a longer time than a commercial battery. The batteries can only produce so many amps at their nominal voltage for a given time. If you drain them faster the battery will produce less voltage trying to keep the amps up. That causes a loss of power.
I have attached a PDF that shows how the capacity of a battery is tested. The test is for a 12 volt battery but you can use the same test for a 24 volt battery by doubling the minimum voltage.
 

Attachments

  • BatteryTestForm.pdf
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Thanks for going into the amp hour explanation, when you get into this solar stuff it can sound confusing and it's true, there can be a lot of things to take into consideration. I guess I'll add one more, when running on the batteries you should run on the upper half of the charged batteries, generally no more than 50%, a lot of batteries don't do well if they are frequently fully discharged. Most higher end inverters have a low battery cutout of around 10.5 to 11 volts for a 12 volt system, 20 volts for our 24 volt inverter, this makes the case for having more amp hours than you need for a battery system and as well the extra power can fill in when demands end up being worse than expected.
 
Yes, and commercial batteries are designed for no more than 50% discharge while industrial batteries are designed for 80% discharge. The batteries will last just five years at those discharge rates but you can double their life by using the top half of that discharge spec. Industrial batteries in electric forklifts and tow tractors are typically discharged 80% daily. You don't want to do that with any battery that you expect to last for more than five years.

You also need to charge a battery as soon as possible after a discharge and let it rest to equalize and degas. Using lithium ion batteries you don't have to wait, just charge and go because gases don't form and the elements charge more uniformly.
 
Without a shot from google earth, this is the best I can get for a pic.
As I said previously there is a total of 12 panels. 4 sets of three wired in series, I just can't get them all in the pic.
IMG_4418.JPG
 
When we bought our solar panels from Grape Solar I asked them if I should hinge them to adjust for summer to winter and they told me to just mount them to face due South and put them at the angle that is in close to the parallel we're located on the earth, we're at about 43 degrees, they told me 45 degrees is good. We face due South and we are pretty clear of mountains East and West of us so we catch most of the sun from morning to sunset. But here's the thing that is not often mentioned when it comes to getting solar panels and that is cell count per panel which relates to per panel voltage output and this is where MPPT solar controllers play an important part of getting enough voltage to charge your batteries even on not so sunny days. With panels that put out far more volts than you need for whatever voltage you are running for battery storage it will really help if you have far less than a good sun availability. I learned this from when we bought solar panels for our motorhome, at the time they sold us panels that put out about 21 volts in full sun, a MPPT solar controller can take extremely large swings of input voltage, I don't remember the controller rating for the motorhome but I think it's over 100 volts DC, but whatever voltage that goes into the controller, only the necessary voltages needed for charging the 12 volt batteries comes out of the solar controller. Since I'm going to run the solar array for the house standby system series/parallel the voltage will be around 72 volts coming into the solar controller, so it would take a pretty cloudy or foggy day not to at least get some charging. A local solar installer generally installs arrays in the 100 volt plus output, but a lot of his installations are grid tie with two way power meters and no battery backup, personally I think that's not a good thing even though it lowers power bills it may not give you power when it's needed. It pays to do your homework, look for solar equipment suppliers that are close, places you can pick up things that would otherwise have to be shipped, you can save $100's by picking up the stuff yourself, we probably saved about $500 by picking up the panels, inverter/charger and solar controller.
 
Any grid tied system is set up to reduce power bills and will not be made to supply independent power. To prevent the power company problems from affecting your power supply you need to have stand alone power and batteries. You can also use a generator as a back-up if necessary but it is better to size your system appropriately.
 
I did a lot of research and came to the conclusion that I didn't want anything to do with grid tied systems, didn't even want any of the cost reductions they were offering, too many strings and as far as I was concerned, it's none of their business what kind of backup system I have, as it is my system could be turned into a totally off grid system. We were actually running off grid for the first year we lived here, in those days it was just a small travel trailer with an RV battery and an alternator I ran with an old washing machine engine, very crude, but it worked for what we needed. Will our solar system take care of all our needs, all the time? Perhaps not full time, but I'm pretty sure it will be better than what we started out with, basically we'll have to minimize our power needs, factoring in low winter sun, foggy and cloudy days and periods of time when the batteries won't get charged from the sun. We are trying to avoid generator use if at all possible.
 
We have a couple of months when solar would be useless for two weeks at a time. Those same periods there is no wind to speak of either so I need to have batteries rated for whole house power for two weeks at a time. The rest of the year we get good solar exposure and good wind. I figure 40K of each would be plenty, with a BIG margin. :)
 
I have thought about having a wind generator, trouble is that we just don't get enough wind to do any good. I wanted to catch water from a stream next to our spring pickup but the county wouldn't give us a water permit for that, I don't think they fully understood that the water that I would be using through a Pelton wheel for generating electricity would be going back to the same stream going under our driveway, no big deal, as it is that stream doesn't flow unless there are heavy rains, so it would be a lot like generating from the wind, slim and none.
 
Solar and wind are not financially viable as cost saving systems (ran the numbers). Their true value is in being an independent and off grid semi-sustainable energy source. Wind is very sketchy for a backup system, except in rare occasions (you live in a wind tunnel). The wind tunnel is a semi joke, as you do need to live some place that does have strong winds on a fairly consistent basis. We are talking winds that are constantly above the 10 MPH. Those gentle evening breezes suck for wind turbines. If it does not move the tree branches, it is not moving the turbine fast enough to generate adequate electricity. Wind, solar and gas (propane , natural gas) generators are required to be self sufficient. Just so you all don't think I missed the most key component, you have to a a medium (batteries) to store this energy until needed. JM2C
 
The general rule for wind, is not only that you have it, but consider it a constant nuisance.
It's not bad for an addition to a solar system, but as the only source for power, I would consider it a no go otherwise.
 
robin416 said:
Hmmm, posts like this will continue to educate me on what should probably be done right from the start.
Click to expand...

When you do you will have some very good advisers here to help you.
I can't tell you how much time and money they saved hubby and me on the other site and your lucky enough to have many of them here now.
This group of people are some of the best there is for getting things done.
 
viking said:
When it comes to hooking up batteries that alone can be a fairly expensive situation, some battery suppliers will build the jumpers and cables for you. I happen to have a friend that runs a generator shop and I bought terminal ends and a lot of used commercial welding cable from him as well as the use of a terminal crimping tool, thing is make sure to use the right size of jumpers and cables as some of the larger inverters are driven by some serious amperage, enough to do some heavy welding, the fuse I have from the battery bank is rated at 195 amps, a breaker switch could be used and usually they are rated at higher trip amps. As it is the charge system in our inverter is rated at 105 amps and the maximum continuous current input can reach 267 amps DC, that's nothing to take lightly, in fact when I have to wrench on battery terminals I insulate the wrenches or lay cloth around the tops of the batteries I'm working on as there is enough amperage available to melt the wrench in your hand, ALWAYS HAVE TOTAL RESPECT and ATTENTION when working around battery systems. One more thing, always have a good ventilation system close to the battery bank, the hydrogen they give off on charging and discharging is highly explosive, absolutely NO SMOKING and watch where you could make electrical sparks. I blew up the battery on my farm tractor, it was so loud that I thought that someone had shot at me, I blew it while I was welding a crack on the frontend loader frame. For venting fumes from the battery room I have a fan that keeps constant positive pressure in the room at all times and there are two vents to the outside on the wall behind the battery bank.
Click to expand...


They did where we got our 6 T-105's. That helped us too, and people like you was the backbone of our system. Thanks again.
 
Wind is viable when you have at least 10mph wind at least half the time. Since there are entire hillsides with wind turbines here it is an obvious choice as a back-up power supply. Solar is cheaper and can produce more power per dollar but it is rated to lose 10% of its power over the first 20 years. It is also susceptible to The E1 pulse of an HEMP while wind can operate after the HEMP if you have a replacement diode and regulator pack properly stored. It is a lot cheaper to buy and store the small replacement parts for the wind turbines than to store replacement panels for a complete solar power system. You have to store replacement charge controllers and inverters with either but they are less expensive and smaller so they are easier to protect in storage.

It is nice to think about having a completely powered home after a large HEMP or grid loss EMP but the reality is that it will make you a target for for take over. Even government will want your power and keeping it to yourself will likely be impossible. Still, it is a nice thought. The reality is that even if you have it you will lose it and still have to live without it in the long run.
 
To my wife and I a backup power system is just a temporary system to get us from the powered age to basically an age of candles, pretty much like when people first came to this country, Pioneer times. How it works out for us is enough electricity to run the refrigerators and freezer until everything in them is used up, after that anything that needs cooling will be like my grandmothers cooler, a screened cupboard in the Northeast corner of the kitchen where she kept eggs, butter, cheese, milk, bacon or occasionally a fresh piece of meat from the butcher. For the time being, the solar array will remain hidden from the road but not from the sun, from the sky, that's another issue as I know that Google flies over to upgrade satellite photos, I've checked on our place on Google Earth over the years and all my property upgrades show up. General privacy is somewhat a gone deal.
 
Sheepdog, I do agree there are entire hillsides /mountain passes that have huge windmills but the big question is like in real estate, Location, location, location. Not many places have sufficient winds strong enough and consistent enough to adequately power a residential sized wind turbine. Now as far as being hemp resistant, I will bow to your knowledge in regards the survivability. In regards to the state attempting to confiscate the power, in a grid down scenario, I doubt the government will be interested in a single home system. They will have much bigger fish to fry. I do think that any neighbors close by will be very interested in any self sufficient home. I can see a whole bunch of neighbors running over with their extension cords wanting to plug in, not understanding the limitations or not caring about the limitations of the electrical resources. The available wind near me would not power a single LED light on a consistent basis. Solar power is available at most locations on a fairly consistent basis.

Now as for keeping the system for myself. It all depends on how you build and where you build. Once the THH project is completed, I doubt anyone, short of the military will every be able to even approach the house, much less be able confiscate the system. I designed the THH project to be defend-able and I would defend it against all comers. Being self sufficient also means (to Me) being able and willing to protect that investment. JM2C.
 
TMT Tactical,
I live within 10 miles of a small town that is trying to be a big city - at least in their planning. I attended their seminar on emergency preparedness and in all the scenarios that they presented the common denominator was the availability of power. I know from my own research that in at least half of the scenarios there will be no grid power. They will have a day, or maybe two, to operate their radios and computers but communications with field operatives will not be available because they use cell towers for the police and emergency service personnel. If they conserve their fuel they will have two to three days of mobility. After that they are done. If they can relocate to some place that has power they will do so with the full force of local government and their police force "for the betterment of the community". I believe they can legally take such actions though lawfully it might not fit. I have written letters exposing the risks, providing solutions, and offering help on a limited basis without any change in their process.

I don't worry about my neighbors or small groups of individuals because they can be dealt with but if the local police force and county sheriffs join forces it will get very ugly very quickly. I can tell them that I have no power - that the incident killed my resources too but they will still want to make sure. If I can hide it long enough for them to verify a lack of power then they might go away but they also might keep looking for any sign of power. It doesn't take sophisticated gear to find out if a generator is making power- even if the lines run underground. A solar farm can easily be checked too and a local police and county sheriffs department can disassemble it to find any working components that they can salvage. They can also just occupy the home and use it as their new control center. That kind of trained force is not easy to discourage or defeat.
It won't be difficult to see that I have food and the means to grow more and that is also a resource they will need. They will already have confiscated food from local stores and warehouses and as much fuel as they can find i it will be a totalitarian government effort to feed and water the town at first but it will evolve to just keeping the folks in charge alive and well. Can a group of us take out the local government and their fighting force? Given time we might be able to do that using hit and run tactics but time is on the side of those with the supplies. I would have to cache food, water, ammo and other supplies all over my property and get my neighbors to do the same in order to fight that kind of war. Are you willing to do that to take your property back?
 
Sheepdog, your points are very well taken and do back up the point that it is either plan to defend or plan to vacate. The THH project is designed to defend. Entry onto the property will not happen, legal or other wise. Now how many of those local government types are willing to die to trying to invade the location? The local police are going to have families to protect and they are not going to want to get involved in a major battle. A home in an urban / suburban environment is not defensible, too many points of entry and too difficult to cover all positions. The only defense for a urban home is to have self destruct on the equipment and make that info known to whom ever arrives to demand access or possession of the equipment or home site. It is simple, If I can't keep and use my equipment, then I will rig it up so that nobody gets to use it. The THH project also does have a system designed to allow me to recover the house if it was over run. Any invading force would not survive a single day in the THH. I wold simple march back in a day or two later and take out the trash.

Now the question I raise is why the town / city has not installed their own Solar / wind/ generator emergency building / structure. Then they can maintain their lines of communication and emergency response structure. The food is another question but it is easier to hide food than a solar system. If the grid has gone down, then you should not be leaving your homestead for any reason, short of evacuating or an absolute medical emergency. In a SHTF event, being out and about is not an option. That is the time to hunker down and defend the family or to get the heck out of Dodge. If a LEO showed up at my property, and wanted access, I would point out it had been their job in the past to protect the greater good but now it is my job to protect my family and it's needed assets. I would also mentioned that all the assets were connected to self destruct devices and would be destroyed before I allowed a single bolt to be removed. I would also mention it would not be a peaceful surrender of the property and that the LEO may want to think about how their family would fair during this event, without them.

The potential for loss of life on both sides with nothing to gain, is a totally different proposition than just shooting in some tear gas and watch the folks march out. The inability to quickly and easily confiscate the property or the system will make the idea of an attack very unpalatable. If it is made clear that you had planned for this scenario and there was not going to be a possibility of a win for them, then a more reasonable accommodation could be negotiated. As you so clearly pointed out, sooner or later the people in power will revert to saving themselves and not worry about the citizens welfare. That is the time for organizing a resistance force or once again getting out of dodge. If this is a urban setting I would have to vote for getting out of Dodge, if possible. If this was a rural setting with a septic system and water, then you could try to wait out the invaders, they will run out of supplies before you do, hopefully.

Now before many here think I have gone off the deep end and become some wild eyed survivalist, not the case but my faith in the " Milk Of Human Kindness" is in very limited supply. I would rather plan for the absolute worst case and never have to need the defenses, than have to bug out and survive in the wilderness. I think that why we call ourselves Preppers, being prepared for the most likely bad events. JM2C
 
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