Solar on a Budget... or am I chasing a unicorn?

[DrHenley]

Brent just a word of caution. I have read that it is advisable to have air vent in the room where the batteries are located and charged. There were comments about hydrogen gas being generated during the charge cycle. I have not checked this out, just thought I would pass it along for you to look into.

Air vent is good, but not necessarily to vent hydrogen. AGMs are sealed and safe to charge indoors. The only time they could vent hydrogen is if they got too hot and the safety valve opens. That should never happen in a climate controlled room. It could happen in a sealed room however, and that's where the air vent comes in.

 

[tmttactical]

Air vent is good, but not necessarily to vent hydrogen. AGMs are sealed and safe to charge indoors. The only time they could vent hydrogen is if they got too hot and the safety valve opens. That should never happen in a climate controlled room. It could happen in a sealed room however, and that's where the air vent comes in.

Doc, thanks for the update and response. Too long ago to remember what type of batteries were being talked about. I was running a Solar cost analyst for junior and one article I read mentioned the hydrogen charging issue.

 

[Brent S]

Brent just a word of caution. I have read that it is advisable to have air vent in the room where the batteries are located and charged. There were comments about hydrogen gas being generated during the charge cycle. I have not checked this out, just thought I would pass it along for you to look into.

Definitely something worth considering. I got AGM batteries that are sealed so they don’t off gasses supposedly. However heat buildup is a concern for both batteries and the electronics. Before I set anything in the space under the stairwell I cut in two vent, one low and one high, and they are on opposite ends of the space. The high one vents to the front porch which has windows that stay open. I am hoping natural convection will move the heat out of the somewhat confined space everything is in. After monitoring the temperature I will add a small ventilation fan if needed. The whole point of producing electricity also encompasses conservative use of it too so I’m hoping to not need a fan.

 

[Proud Prepper]

AGM batteries should be in a ventilated space. Even though they are maintanace free and sealed,
But the “valve-regulated” part of the battery description refers to a vent. In the case of AGM, it’s a pressure-relief valve, usually opening between 1 and 2 psig. Charging too quickly produces hydrogen at a rate faster than it can be absorbed into the glass mat. If this occurs long enough, pressure will build inside the battery, and could force the valve to open.

When this occurs, you’re suddenly releasing the accumulated hydrogen into the battery compartment. So you still need a location that’s free of ignition sources, and open to the atmosphere to dissipate the gas.

 

[Brent S]

AGM batteries should be in a ventilated space. Even though they are maintanace free and sealed,
But the “valve-regulated” part of the battery description refers to a vent. In the case of AGM, it’s a pressure-relief valve, usually opening between 1 and 2 psig. Charging too quickly produces hydrogen at a rate faster than it can be absorbed into the glass mat. If this occurs long enough, pressure will build inside the battery, and could force the valve to open.

When this occurs, you’re suddenly releasing the accumulated hydrogen into the battery compartment. So you still need a location that’s free of ignition sources, and open to the atmosphere to dissipate the gas.

You are correct that they still need to be vented but I read they don’t produce nearly as much hydrogen as regular Lead acid batteries. Here is to hoping my science experiment dosent blow up my house ! Lol

 

[lonewolf]

I've got somewhere around $40 - 50,000 in the entire system

that's one heck of an investment! I don't know anyone over here who would or could make that kind of a financial commitment.

 

[Mountain trapper]

that's one heck of an investment! I don't know anyone over here who would or could make that kind of a financial commitment.

I really didn't have much choice. We live several miles beyond the end of the power lines and are totally surrounded by National Forest (Federal lands). Even if I could get the permits to cross forest service lands with power lines the cost would far higher than going with solar.

 

[lonewolf]

I have never understood this having to have power AT ANY COST, even if I wanted it that badly I just haven't got that kind of capital.
having power is just not at the top of my list, have lived without any kind of power in the past and will do so again if the power grid fails in the societal collapse, its just not that big a deal, for me anyway.

 

[DrHenley]

https://offgridham.com/2018/03/agm-batteries/

One of the more unique properties of AGM batteries is that their chemical process is recombinant. In conventional flooded batteries, hydrogen is pulled out of the electrolyte (which is mostly water). This breakdown is why flooded batteries occasionally need to be topped off with water and why the explosive hydrogen must be safely vented away. The AGM battery will recombine the hydrogen and oxygen to put water molecules back together inside the sealed system. The hydrogen that would otherwise be gassed out as an unwanted byproduct is effectively “recycled”. It’s a highly efficient process; over 99% of the hydrogen is recovered. This is how AGM batteries get away with never needing outside water added after they are sealed at the factory. They can literally make their own water.

AGM batteries have a safety valve that will release pressure if the battery becomes dangerously overheated but you may never get that far. They will generally show clear signs of their imminent death long before the valve gives way. If your battery feels excessively warm, develops a bulge on any side, or is making crackling/bubbling/ticking sounds, immediately disconnect it, let it stand for thirty minutes or so to stabilize, and discard it in an environmentally ethical manner. After you have cleared the trouble that caused the battery to fail (usually overcharging), go shopping for a new battery!

https://www.fiamm.com/fileadmin/user_upload/products/mobility/powerCUBE/Truck_AGM_folder_ENG.pdf
AGM TECHNOLOGY
AGM technology Blocking technology
The main feature that distinguishes an AGM battery from a traditional battery is the gas recombination
technology. For a traditional lead-acid battery the phase of charging is characterized by the dissociation of
water into hydrogen and oxygen. The two gasses leak from the caps, while the level of electrolyte inside the
battery decreases.
AGM uses instead the principle of recombination. Thanks to a special microporous separator (Absorbent
Glass Material), impregnated with a controlled quantity of electrolyte, the oxygen released from the positive
plate after the dissociation of water during charging, can migrate to the negative from which is xed and then
recombine with hydrogen, restoring the water that was dissociated. This establishes a closed electrochemical
cycle, without any gas emission and without water consumption​

 

[Mountain trapper]

I have never understood this having to have power AT ANY COST, even if I wanted it that badly I just haven't got that kind of capital.
having power is just not at the top of my list, have lived without any kind of power in the past and will do so again if the power grid fails in the societal collapse, its just not that big a deal, for me anyway.

For me the simple answer is; I could afford it. I have to consider my wife's comfort too. I'm not going to make my wife live up here in the mountains without all the conveniences of town living. Electric is more of a necessity than a luxury too. My well is 650 feet deep, no electric no water.
Besides, I'm 63 years old and I want some conveniences too.

 

[Brent S]

For me the simple answer is; I could afford it. I have to consider my wife's comfort too. I'm not going to make my wife live up here in the mountains without all the conveniences of town living. Electric is more of a necessity than a luxury too. My well is 650 feet deep, no electric no water.
Besides, I'm 63 years old and I want some conveniences too.

Comfort has become a lot more important to me as I’ve gotten older. I really like air conditioning and the microwave!

 

[lonewolf]

that's okay for now but what happens when SHTF and the supply chain collapses and spare parts aren't available, or am I the only one thinking long term?
seems to me that there are perhaps more people in America who are setting up homesteads with a view to a better way of life, we don't have "homesteads" in the UK, and most preppers are ordinary folk living in ordinary houses just trying to make a living, and when SHTF they will just have to survive with what they have and what they've been able to prep and resort like me to a simpler way of life because we haven't got the kind of capital, especially following covid-19 many Brits wont even have a job any more, so any kind of financial investment is out of the window.
it seems that the two styles of survival thinking US V UK are completely different.

 

[Brent S]

So, here’s a couple things I’ve learned and done while I’m still waiting for the last few things I ordered. I ran the 4 pairs of wires and ground from the panels to the charge controller box last night. The wires from the panels to the charge controllers don’t have to be the same length, and should be as short as possible. So the panels on the ends of the rack will have longer wires. The wires from the dual charge controllers to the batteries and all the battery wiring needs to be the same length so the resistance is the same. The controllers and batteries should be as close as possible to each other too. And lastly every piece should be grounded. I bonded all the metal boxes, panel racking and devices together and tied them all to a new ground rod separate from the house ground system. Can’t wait to power this thing up!

 

[Brent S]

that's okay for now but what happens when SHTF and the supply chain collapses and spare parts aren't available, or am I the only one thinking long term?

I am 56 yrs old now. I figure the batteries will last 5 years before needing to be replaced, (hopefully). I’m hopeful that by then there will be better battery technology available and that will be the last set I buy for my lifetime. I’m also installing three separate systems. That way if one goes down I may need to move a circuit or two but can keep the essentials working. And lastly, I figure with my heaving a couple arteries in my heart partially clogged already I’m not worried about the systems lasting 20+ years. As I’ve said before, the things that will last my lifetime don’t need to be as tough as they used to be.

 

[lonewolf]

I am 56 yrs old now. I figure the batteries will last 5 years before needing to be replaced, (hopefully). I’m hopeful that by then there will be better battery technology available and that will be the last set I buy for my lifetime. I’m also installing three separate systems. That way if one goes down I may need to move a circuit or two but can keep the essentials working. And lastly, I figure with my heaving a couple arteries in my heart partially clogged already I’m not worried about the systems lasting 20+ years. As I’ve said before, the things that will last my lifetime don’t need to be as tough as they used to be.

that seems to be relying on some future technology coming to help survival, the way things are going I don't think we've got 5 years.

 

[Brent S]

that seems to be relying on some future technology coming to help survival, the way things are going I don't think we've got 5 years.

Even if the batteries die you could still use the system for power during the daylight. Nothing is a sure bet in life, but the point is to have a backup. Even though I have two generators and 500 gallons of fuel, this is just a backup for my backup. The old one is none and two is one philosophy. The current state of things in the world are one of the reasons I decided to cough up the cash for this experiment.

 

[lonewolf]

thats where we differ, when things go "tits up" I will revert to a simpler, basis type of lifestyle that dosent need any sort of modern technology, the sort of lifestyle that was common here in the UK between the 2 world wars.(we didnt have electricity in homes until the mid 1930s, rural homes not until the 1960s).
that kind of solar set up would be out of the reach of most Brits, its just not financially possible.
thats what i mean when i say prepping in the US and prepping in the UK are very different.
oh yes, and i'm older than you.

 

[DrHenley]

You do realize bigpaul, that if we actually were living in the stone age like you seem to want, you probably would have been dead thirty years ago.

 

[lonewolf]

You do realize bigpaul, that if we actually were living in the stone age like you seem to want, you probably would have been dead thirty years ago.

thats where you've all got it wrong, its not the stone age, its just a simpler lifestyle thats all, , some may be dead at an earlier age but so they do today. we wont all live to be 100 or even 3 score years and ten, all my fathers in law died before they were 60 and thats with modern medicine.
I guess your idea of "prepping and survival" is just different to mine.

 

[DrHenley]

I will revert to a simpler, basis type of lifestyle that dosent need any sort of modern technology, the sort of lifestyle that was common here in the UK between the 2 world wars.

Life expectancy in the UK during that period was 55.

 

[lonewolf]

average, some lived longer some died earlier, like now.
my parents were both born just before WW1, mother died aged 73 dad died aged 83.

 

[lonewolf]

Someone who thinks that without modern technology its THE STONE AGE is really quite funny, its also an INSULT to all those generations that existed before most people here were born.

 

[Brent S]

I have a wood stove for both heating and cooking and a root cellar. Even have axes and hand tools. If things get really really bad I could survive. The thing is though that I like the comforts we are used to. As long as I have the ability to help ensure I can live as comfortable as I am accustomed to I’m glad to do it. Some people like to drive a fast sports car, drink 300$ bottles of wine and dress to impress others. Personally I would rather let others think I am poor and invest in tangible things that make my life easier. Everyone has Their own priorities.

 

[DrHenley]

average, some lived longer some died earlier, like now.
my parents were both born just before WW1, mother died aged 73 dad died aged 83.

Yes I know how averages work bigpaul. My great grandmother was born in the 19th century and lived to 95. Her daughter, my grandmother, was born around the turn of the century and lived to 94. Her son, my father, was born in 1922 and lived to 89. It's possible to beat the odds, especially if you have the genetics.

When my sister was born, I stayed with that grandmother and great grandmother a while. We lived close to the life you crave, but with some electricity - mainly for lights, refrigerator, and ceiling fan (no A/C). Oh and well pump, which didn't work so well, LOL. My grandmother washed clothes in a cauldron over a fire in the back yard. She heated bath water in a washtub on the stove. I plowed her garden with a plow meant to be pulled by a mule. We walked to town when we needed to go to the post office, store, church, etc.

 

[Mountain trapper]

One key component that will increase the efficiency of a solar system in a sun tracker. If your using a pole mount for the solar panels a sun tracker will increase the efficiency of the panels by about 30%. I wanted one for my system but my panels are too big and heavy. In hindsight I should of split my panels on two poles then I could of used 2 trackers. I'm thinking about adding 5 or 6 more panels to my system, then I could utilize a tracker.

 

[DrHenley]

Someone who thinks that without modern technology its THE STONE AGE is really quite funny, its also an INSULT to all those generations that existed before most people here were born.

Take away modern technology from an advanced culture and you won't go back to those "simple times." The infrastructure that existed in the simple times doesn't exist anymore. You won't have the equipment or expertise necessary to sustain even horse and buggy age technology because with few exceptions that doesn't exist anymore. The factories that ran on steam power are all gone. Take away electricity and you are taking away nearly all manufacturing, including the ability to process steel. So without steel we are no longer in the Iron Age, that takes us back to the Bronze Age. But there are not enough people who know how to even produce and process bronze without any electricity. That technology is gone too for all practical purposes. So what came before the Bronze Age???

The Stone Age.

Be careful what you wish for!

 

[Brent S]

Yes I know how averages work bigpaul. My great grandmother was born in the 19th century and lived to 95. Her daughter, my grandmother, was born around the turn of the century and lived to 94. Her son, my father, was born in 1922 and lived to 89. It's possible to beat the odds, especially if you have the genetics.

When my sister was born, I stayed with that grandmother and great grandmother a while. We lived close to the life you crave, but with some electricity - mainly for lights, refrigerator, and ceiling fan (no A/C). Oh and well pump, which didn't work so well, LOL. My grandmother washed clothes in a cauldron over a fire in the back yard. She heated bath water in a washtub on the stove. I plowed her garden with a plow meant to be pulled by a mule. We walked to town when we needed to go to the post office, store, church, etc.

Just more good examples of why I don’t want to go back to the Stone Age! Lol

 

[Brent S]

One key component that will increase the efficiency of a solar system in a sun tracker. If your using a pole mount for the solar panels a sun tracker will increase the efficiency of the panels by about 30%. I wanted one for my system but my panels are too big and heavy. In hindsight I should of split my panels on two poles then I could of used 2 trackers. I'm thinking about adding 5 or 6 more panels to my system, then I could utilize a tracker.

I’m in Ga so get pretty good sun all day. Being further north you need to try and catch every little bit you can. Sizing the system is really important too. I have two extra panels and two extra batteries from what I calculated on this first setup. Just in case we get bad weather with minimal sun for more than two days.

 

[Brent S]

Still moving forward. I ran wires today and got everything into the Charge controller box. I also went under the house and installed the new circuit for the fridge and ran a line over to the main panel box. After testing the fridge and freezer on the new system then I will decide what other circuits I can add to the system. That’s about all I can do Until I get the DC breakers and mounts. Really close to firing this thing up now, and eager!

 

[Mountain trapper]

Still moving forward. I ran wires today and got everything into the Charge controller box. I also went under the house and installed the new circuit for the fridge and ran a line over to the main panel box. After testing the fridge and freezer on the new system then I will decide what other circuits I can add to the system. That’s about all I can do Until I get the DC breakers and mounts. Really close to firing this thing up now, and eager!

That was a great day when I got my system fired up. The only problem that I've had with my system was a breaker kept tripping between the solar charge controller and inverter. Once I replaced that breaker I haven't had any problem since. It's nice going out to look at the controller and see that I'm generating far more power than I'm using. Maybe around August it'll be hot enough to try out the AC and heat pump. Today hit 68.