Solar on a Budget... or am I chasing a unicorn?

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Take away modern technology from an advanced culture and you won't go back to those "simple times." The infrastructure that existed in the simple times doesn't exist anymore. You won't have the equipment or expertise necessary to sustain even horse and buggy age technology because with few exceptions that doesn't exist anymore. The factories that ran on steam power are all gone. Take away electricity and you are taking away nearly all manufacturing, including the ability to process steel. So without steel we are no longer in the Iron Age, that takes us back to the Bronze Age. But there are not enough people who know how to even produce and process bronze without any electricity. That technology is gone too for all practical purposes. So what came before the Bronze Age???

The Stone Age.

Be careful what you wish for!
future generations may as you say go back to the stone age, without the skills and the knowledge mankind will just get dumber and dumber, but immediately post SHTF we will revert to a pre industrial age.
these skills that are needed to survive can be learned and we wont be working exactly as we do now, adaption to the new normal will be necessary. those that dont adapt will die.
oh yes and they produced bronze in the bronze age without electricity because they didnt have it back then.
 
That was a great day when I got my system fired up. The only problem that I've had with my system was a breaker kept tripping between the solar charge controller and inverter. Once I replaced that breaker I haven't had any problem since. It's nice going out to look at the controller and see that I'm generating far more power than I'm using. Maybe around August it'll be hot enough to try out the AC and heat pump. Today hit 68.
I don’t imagine AC is your biggest energy guzzler like it is here. I would love to have my central unit on solar but will be ok with just a window unit for the master bedroom. Another thing I’m planning to compliment the solar is to install the propane water heater that I got a while back. I’m considering making a solar water pre heater for the hot water as well. I have 4 large pieces of tempered glass that with one I’m definitely going to use to warm the pool up with. I will do a separate thread for that project.
 
oh yes and they produced bronze in the bronze age without electricity because they didnt have it back then.
That knowledge and expertise took centuries to develop. Like the process for making Toledo Steel, or Damascus Steel - things that took centuries to develop - that knowledge has been lost to posterity. Even with all our modern technology, we still have not been able to duplicate them.
 
maybe future generations might need such skills but i'll be long gone by then.
funny how you change a conversation about the bronze age to Toledo steel just to fit in with your own bias:rolleyes:
 
Well, I didn’t get everything today but I did get most of the supplies today. Another step forward! Didn’t get the breakers for the charge controllers though, and that’s what I need to finish wiring the controller box. At least I can piddle some on it tomorrow.
 
I don’t imagine AC is your biggest energy guzzler like it is here. I would love to have my central unit on solar but will be ok with just a window unit for the master bedroom. Another thing I’m planning to compliment the solar is to install the propane water heater that I got a while back. I’m considering making a solar water pre heater for the hot water as well. I have 4 large pieces of tempered glass that with one I’m definitely going to use to warm the pool up with. I will do a separate thread for that project.
I have a little window a.c. unit for the fur shed. It hasn't been hot enough in the house yet to need a.c. Until last week we were still using the wood stove.
We have a propane water heater for the house. It provides plenty of hot water. I like the idea of a solar pre heater. You'll just need to keep it from freezing.
 
I have a little window a.c. unit for the fur shed. It hasn't been hot enough in the house yet to need a.c. Until last week we were still using the wood stove.
We have a propane water heater for the house. It provides plenty of hot water. I like the idea of a solar pre heater. You'll just need to keep it from freezing.
Not just to keep it from freezing but have it automatically drain the system with a thermostat in case I forget to do it manually.
 
Not just to keep it from freezing but have it automatically drain the system with a thermostat in case I forget to do it manually.
I'm all for making everything as automatic as possible. I like the concept of being able to kick back and not worry about anything.
I'm looking for a new generator for the well pump that I can add an auto start too. For an auto start to work I need a generator that has an auto choke or fuel injected.
 
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I'm all for making everything as automatic as possible. I like the concept of being able to kick back and not worry about anything.
I'm looking for a new generator for the well pump that I can add an auto start too. For an auto start to work I need a generator that has an auto choke or fuel injected.
Wouldn’t propane fill that need? Between it being the longest lasting fuel That needs no additives and the fact that it doesn't dirty up your oil like gas or diesel makes it my favorite fuel. I know you said you already invested in diesel tanks though.
 
The one thing from holding me up to being as self sufficient as possible is electrical. I have good water, food/ livestock, etc. I've researched solar and it seems so expensive. Any tips from people that have done it? Is it possible to do on a budget?
Let me toss my 2 cents worth in now...off grid energy production is expensive - no2 ways around that. #1. The first thing you should do is to find ways to minimize your need for electricity. As someone mentioned, heating a house with electricity generated by PV cells is a waste - scratch that off the list. Do you have a clothes dryer? I have not used one in 20 years. You can scratch that off the list. Hot water can be done with propane and a good solar pre-heater. Scratch that one off the list. Dish washer?? Really? I have a washing machine that is not automatic, but only requires a 300 watt motor to use it - overall electricity is proportionally lower, as is water usage. I could not do without a/c but if you landscape carefully, you will need less and less electricity to cool your house. The nice thing about a/c is that while you use more electricity to cool a house down on hot days, you also generate more electricity on those hot days. You generate the electricity for the a/c but you don't have to store it because it is used automatically...but then you might have to store some for the night. And how well insulated is your home? Do you have a way to change all ceiling lighting into 5v or 12v or some other form of dc? saves electricity. So, number 1, you reduce your need. #2. You change the time you need electricity. If you are home all day, you can do the wash while the sun is shining. The more tasks you do while the sun is shining, the smaller the battery pack you will need. Prepare all of your food during the day. Charge all of the batteries during the day. #3, related to #2 - is there some other form of energy you can use? I am going to set up a weather station on my property because the wind is very strong and consistent after dusk. If I can get a windmill to create the energy for tasks that I MUST do at night, that means I don't need a battery pack for that - or at least, not a very big one.
 
Wouldn’t propane fill that need? Between it being the longest lasting fuel That needs no additives and the fact that it doesn't dirty up your oil like gas or diesel makes it my favorite fuel. I know you said you already invested in diesel tanks though.
Actually I am looking at going with propane for the well pump generator. That way I can get 1 bulk tank to run the generator and the heater inside the pump house. I'm just having a hard time finding a generator that fits my needs. It has to be a minium of 8,000 watts and electric start, needs a 50 amp breaker and auto choke or fuel injected. So far I haven't found one yet that has all those features. Without internet it's hard to research generators.
 
What kind of pressure does propane have at -40? Natural gas has a boiling point that is extremely low(−260 °F) but propane's boiling point is -43.6 °F. It seems you'd have to have a heated tank, or an extremely well insulated buried tank in the North Country to be able to get any pressure out of it in the dead of winter.
 
Let me toss my 2 cents worth in now...off grid energy production is expensive - no2 ways around that. #1. The first thing you should do is to find ways to minimize your need for electricity. As someone mentioned, heating a house with electricity generated by PV cells is a waste - scratch that off the list. Do you have a clothes dryer? I have not used one in 20 years. You can scratch that off the list. Hot water can be done with propane and a good solar pre-heater. Scratch that one off the list. Dish washer?? Really? I have a washing machine that is not automatic, but only requires a 300 watt motor to use it - overall electricity is proportionally lower, as is water usage. I could not do without a/c but if you landscape carefully, you will need less and less electricity to cool your house. The nice thing about a/c is that while you use more electricity to cool a house down on hot days, you also generate more electricity on those hot days. You generate the electricity for the a/c but you don't have to store it because it is used automatically...but then you might have to store some for the night. And how well insulated is your home? Do you have a way to change all ceiling lighting into 5v or 12v or some other form of dc? saves electricity. So, number 1, you reduce your need. #2. You change the time you need electricity. If you are home all day, you can do the wash while the sun is shining. The more tasks you do while the sun is shining, the smaller the battery pack you will need. Prepare all of your food during the day. Charge all of the batteries during the day. #3, related to #2 - is there some other form of energy you can use? I am going to set up a weather station on my property because the wind is very strong and consistent after dusk. If I can get a windmill to create the energy for tasks that I MUST do at night, that means I don't need a battery pack for that - or at least, not a very big one.
No doubt, reducing your consumption is just as important as the production of electricity. Unless your loaded with disposable income. Everyone in your household needs to be on board with being aware of how to minimize use which is likely going to be an issue for me here...
 
I'll toss in my $0.02, speaking from experience. I've got about $25k into my system, 8kW solar. Grid tie-only as designed (did it 5-10 years ago). It was all DIY. For maybe $5k I can make it off-grid-ready (I've got most of those parts sitting around, just not connected). I regularly have $5-10k in new batteries that rotate through, so that part is good-to-go. But all of this was installed with sweat equity, you can double the costs if yo are paying someone to do the work.

Rule of thumb. Expect to spend $4-5 per watt for off-grid solar if you DIY. Call it $8-10 / watt for turn-key installation. On average through the year, expect 5 hours nationwide per day of usable output. So if you install 1,000 watts of solar, you'll get 5,000 watts out of it. Not near that in Seattle, and more than that in Texas. There will be inefficiencies, and as much as 30% of that power can get wasted via those inefficiencies.

When you are looking at what it can run, look at the annual expected power usage of a device. Let's say a fridge says it'll cost $150 per year at 12 cents / kilowatt-hour. Again, more $$ in Texas, less in Minnesota. The power they use will be $150 / $0.12 = 1250 kilowatt-hours. That is 1,250,000 watt-hours. Your solar panel needs for just this fridge will be 1,250,000 / 365 days / 5 hours/day = 685 watts of solar. Allow for some inefficiencies, consider nothing less than 900 watts. And being in Texas, I'd bump that up to 1200-1500 watts of solar. Add up all the things you want it to run, factor how long each runs per day (fridge runs 24/7)... let me give a second example for that.

OK, let's say you want some light. You want 10 bulbs, 15 watts each, to run for 4 hours per day. Power usage is 15 watts x 10 bulbs x 4 hours = 600 watt-hours per day. If you get 5 hours/day of sun, that means you need 600 / 5 = 120 watts of solar. Round that up to 150 watts of solar for inefficiencies. I hope this helps. Solar is not cheap.
 
So far I have about 6k in my system Which has a 4000w inverter with 1000AH of battery. That includes The solar mounts, panels, dual 60amp chargers and all wires and connectors and breakers. I also have 11 extra panels included in that cost, which will be used in my other two systems. The Main costs were 2500 for 20 200w panels and 10 100AH batteries for 2000. The other things like breakers, panels and connectors add up but nothing compared to the power generation and storage. I have Learned a lot since starting this project. If you just do a grid tied system you can save a lot of money. That’s good. The money comes from the off grid side in the inverter and batteries. The main reason I didn’t go with grid tied was I want this as a backup if the grid goes down. Grid tied produces greener energy which is great but doesn't help when the grid goes down.
My plan was to work on some connections today but after working a lot of hours this week I haven’t managed to get motivated to do much of anything yet and it’s 4pm now! I’m still waiting on some breakers anyways....
 
Here's a pic of our solar setup. The grey building houses the battery bank, generator, inverter and all electrical components.
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Here's a pic of our solar setup. The grey building houses the battery bank, generator, inverter and all electrical components.View attachment 10658
I was able to utilize the space under the stairwell for my batteries for this first setup. It was actually pretty good but I’m liking the idea of its own place outside of the house for the next battery bank. My front porch is about 4 feet off the ground and I think I will make a small room under it for the next part.
 
We had a huge energy hog of a chest freezer, but when it died, I decided to get a much smaller one. There was food down in the depths of the huge one that had been forgotten a decade ago, LOL

The new chest freezer measures 37"x21" and uses an estimated 250 kW hours per year. So that's like 0.7 kW hours per day (a average power consumption of 29 watts) I was able to make room for it in the pantry, which would have been impossible with the old one. Space it tight in it, but that makes it more efficient!
.
We also have an ancient Kenmore upright (non-frost free) I bought in graduate school in the 1980s.
 
Do you have a chest freezer? If so, what size, and how much juice does it take each day?
My fridge is a large side by side and is an energy guzzler pulling 10amps. The chest freezer only pulls 5amps. Those are the two main things I wanted to run. I actually have a 2nd chest freezer too but it will stay hooked up to the grid for now. Both chest freezers are about 4’ wide and 3 ft tall. One holds meats and cheese and the vegetables go in the older one. Once I get a handle on the average use of my battery capacity I will add some lighting circuits and maybe a couple other receptacles as I can. All the lighting has been converted to LED for a long time now So it dosent pull much at all. once I finish with installing the three separate systems I should be able to run everything except the central heat and air. I will stay connected to the grid for that, and even though I will use the solar for day to day on everything else it’s mostly just for having energy security.
 
that's okay for now but what happens when SHTF and the supply chain collapses and spare parts aren't available, or am I the only one thinking long term?
seems to me that there are perhaps more people in America who are setting up homesteads with a view to a better way of life, we don't have "homesteads" in the UK, and most preppers are ordinary folk living in ordinary houses just trying to make a living, and when SHTF they will just have to survive with what they have and what they've been able to prep and resort like me to a simpler way of life because we haven't got the kind of capital, especially following covid-19 many Brits wont even have a job any more, so any kind of financial investment is out of the window.
it seems that the two styles of survival thinking US V UK are completely different.

We have a lot more land for off grid folks to go to. I think that is the main difference. People are pretty much the same. Personally I feel that those with more backup systems will do better in the long run. They won’t have to adapt to no water for bathing and preventing most bugs and many illnesses. They won’t have to have their bodily system switch instantly to dirty clothing and body. They can survive a harsh winter or summer with solar and generator. The advantages of having a fridge and freezer is not to be discounted. Lights and cameras are no small thing when having to defend what you have.

Just my random thoughts.
 
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I had to look up on the manufacturer's site what the rated current was for the chest freezer. It is 1.2 amps, or 132 watts. I am not sure if that is the startup draw for the compressor or continuous. We never hear the compressor starting up like we do for the fridge, so it can't be much. You could easily run this thing on one of those small 250 watt car inverters plugged into the cigarette lighter outlet.
 
I have a wood stove for both heating and cooking and a root cellar. Even have axes and hand tools. If things get really really bad I could survive. The thing is though that I like the comforts we are used to. As long as I have the ability to help ensure I can live as comfortable as I am accustomed to I’m glad to do it. Some people like to drive a fast sports car, drink 300$ bottles of wine and dress to impress others. Personally I would rather let others think I am poor and invest in tangible things that make my life easier. Everyone has Their own priorities.

Everyone does have their own priorities. While in my younger days I I had some pretty lame priorities, my middle to older years don’t. No more expensive wines or excessively expensive cars or clothing. I shamefully admit to purchasing $400-50 blouses and shoes In the past. Won’t even talk about purses. Anyway, point being I think it is wise to not flaunt your wealth these days. Our current home is about 1/3 the size of our last one...and around 1/4 of the cost. And I love it! Am much happier here in the mountains with fellow Christians and hill folk around me! I am so enjoying getting back to the land.

All that said, I think those with solar, wood stoves and generators are planning well!
 
AD,

I thought you had a bigger solar setup? That looks like only about 2kW? And up where you are, you might not get that much sunlight.

Doc, I wouldn't touch an inverter under 2kW, and a major brand like Magnum or Xantrex. Overkill? Yes. But I've used those small <1000w inverters, and they last a few months and die. Underkill doesn't begin to describe them.
 
Texas, I'm just saying you could, not that you should. My smallest car inverter is a 450 watt, and it has been in continuous use for a couple of years. I had a 2kW pure sine inverter in the car at one time, but it was more trouble than it was worth since the cigarette lighter wouldn't supply enough power to do anything that a small inverter wouldn't do.

My home inverters are 600 Watt pure sine, 2kW Pure sine and 6kW (12 kW peak). The 600 watt is for portability for use with a single battery.
 
Wow, I just uploaded all these photos at once and it was done in less than two seconds! Huge improvement from the old systems here.
I finally finished all the connections for this first system today! Yay. I have never seen any other systems personally and would have liked to for design ideas and such. I got all this from just reading online so I am sure there are things I could have done better or differently. The racking for the panels Is welded together. I wouldn’t do that again as with all the clean up, priming and painting it would have just been easier to bolt it together. The welding also caused the rails to warp a little bit and the panels aren’t perfectly flat. No one else would really notice but I did. The wiring looks a lot more complex than it really is. I ran two of every wire to reduce the strain on the system. Not necessary but not a bad thing either.
I’m excited to see how much the panels produce tomorrow. By the time I turned everything on the sun wasn’t hitting the panels anymore and it was still producing 54watts. There are 2000 watts of panels on this first part. I did not Add up everything yet but have really close to 6k in this part so far. That does include 11 more of the 250w panels though. Kind of regretting not going with lithium batteries but we all live in a world where we have to spend within our means. , unlike our government...
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