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Not sure yet if we want to sow seeds next week and open the greenhouse in mid to late March since trees have almost totally shaded it in the a.m.
May just sow them in the hugelkulture mound and rasied beds in early April.
We have had some hot days in early April but also some freezes up to second week of April.
 
didnt really need anything as i ordered stuff last fall and saved much of my own seed as i been doing it for a long time.

the few things i wanted to try i ordered just to get in my hands to grow out this year and gather seeds for my stocks. one is a yellow oxheart another is a runner bean called succotash and it looks like purple corn seed. it arrived back in stock yesterday so i got use my gift certificate and get that out of the way. also i ordered 3 new types of apple to graft with...so yea i bought some 'twigs'...lol..scions..they are burgundy,chestnut and golden russet.

i have several varieties of taters in stock to plant out. but i think i will buy some kennebecs...if available...i am a bit concerned about them and shortages from last years planting. but i have enough held back to get a crop regardless.

several universities as of late are breeding up more heirlooms for growers to be able to save seed year after year.one being sweet corn..theres a new corn out called who gets kissed i hope to try one year and see how that does. theres also several private breeders doing this with lots of garden varieties.
 
elkhound said:
didnt really need anything as i ordered stuff last fall and saved much of my own seed as i been doing it for a long time.

the few things i wanted to try i ordered just to get in my hands to grow out this year and gather seeds for my stocks. one is a yellow oxheart another is a runner bean called succotash and it looks like purple corn seed. it arrived back in stock yesterday so i got use my gift certificate and get that out of the way. also i ordered 3 new types of apple to graft with...so yea i bought some 'twigs'...lol..scions..they are burgundy,chestnut and golden russet.

i have several varieties of taters in stock to plant out. but i think i will buy some kennebecs...if available...i am a bit concerned about them and shortages from last years planting. but i have enough held back to get a crop regardless.

several universities as of late are breeding up more heirlooms for growers to be able to save seed year after year.one being sweet corn..theres a new corn out called who gets kissed i hope to try one year and see how that does. theres also several private breeders doing this with lots of garden varieties.
Click to expand...

I can't imagine a university 'breeding' heirlooms.
 
Meerkat said:
I can't imagine a university 'breeding' heirlooms.
Click to expand...

read this article...theres more too...like cornell and many others. i have posted about this corn before but have no clue where on site. but it talks about various breeders doing same things. both private and public. a couple private is joseph lofthouse and carol deppe. deppe has bred up lots of stuff and has.runs open seed source initiative. steven edholm/skillcult if breeding up apples like famous albert etter did long ago too.steven has released several apples into open domain for any and all to try and use. he was told by many experts and amatuers it couldnt be done...growing new varities out from seed..one of first he done has a great flavor so he named it..BITE ME !...to thumb his nose at everyone...lol...he has another called black strawberry..it is beautiful...dark red skin and dark red flesh...i hope to get scion for BS in next few weeks when he release items he sells. i have the BITE ME! growing already.

i have 2 cukes from cornell that are new 'heirlooms' that are powdery mildew resistant to try this year as example. also i found several items from my area to grow and the items i grow and save as well.

its organic market growers and buyers driving this change.

https://gwenynhillfarm.com/who-gets-kissed-corny-seed-varieties/
 
I read it ElkH but not so sure about improving or altering plants any further.
I took a course in horticulture and still have my Plant Science and Nursery Production books . The more we mess with heirlooms the less heirloom that are.
 
Meerkat said:
I read it ElkH but not so sure about improving or altering plants any further.
I took a course in horticulture and still have my Plant Science and Nursery Production books . The more we mess with heirlooms the less heirloom that are.
Click to expand...

listen real close to my words...these are not being altered through gmo processes. they are just varities being developed through cross breeding then grown out till it become stable to reproducing itself. ALL HEIRLOOMS were hybrids at some point..they were grown out till they became stable...this has been done by farmers for 1000's of years. often from natural cross pollination in the field..nothing more..no gene splicing or any such nonsense. famous heirlooms that were hybrids..rutgers tomato..developed by ruters university for campbells soup...the famous mortgage lifter tomato thats so famous...read..the use of certain words today people dont understand..heirloom just means its been grown by folks for a long time..take straight eight cuke..i spent my whole life around folks growing it and never once i have heard it called an heirloom...but it is an heirloom...this use of heirloom as of late is often used as a catchy marketing phrase...if its not a F1,F2 or F3 hybrid and says that..its a variety that you can save seed from and regrow.its a heirloom/open pollinated... read bolded text below



http://www.reimerseeds.com/mortgage-lifter-tomato.aspx
85 days. Solanum lycopersicum. Open Pollinated. The plant produces heavy yields of 1 to 2 lb pink beefsteak tomatoes. They are very sweet, meaty, juicy, and flavorful. It has a rich tomato flavor. Perfect for salads, slicing, and sandwiches. This variety was developed in the 1930s by Mr. Byles of Logan, WV to help pay off his home mortgage. He was able to pay off his $6,000 mortgage in 6 years by selling the plants for $1 each. He crossed a German Johnson, a Beefsteak, and an Italian & English variety to come up with this unique variety. An excellent choice for home gardens. A family heirloom variety from Logan, West Virginia, USA. United States Department of Agriculture, PI 647467. Disease Resistant: V, F, N. Indeterminate.

http://www.reimerseeds.com/straight-eight-cucumbers.aspx1935 All-America Selections Winner!

63 days. Cucumis sativus. Open Pollinated. Plant produces high yields of 8" long dark green cucumbers. One of the best slicing cucumber on the market. It is an extremely dependable producing crop. If you had bad luck with other cucumber varieties last season, then this one this year. You will be giving them away to your family, neighbors, and friends there are so many! Grows best if grown on trellis or stakes. Excellent choice for home gardens and market growers. A 1938 heirloom variety named for its perfectly straight 8" long cucumber. United States Department of Agriculture, NSL 5764. Disease Resistant: CMV.

read more here ferry morse bred it up and released it in 35.

https://sustainableseedco.com/products/straight-eight-cucumber?variant=3172024811560
Straight Eight Cucumber was introduced by Ferry Morse in 1935

Straight 8's are extremely dependable at producing a crop. Bad luck with other cucumbers last season, then this is the one to try this year. Eight inches of perfect straight cucumber slicing excellence! You'll be giving them away to the neighbors there are so many!

1937 MacFayden Seed Co. catalog says Straight Eight Cucumber seeds...
"A real forward step in Cucumbers. Received the Gold Medal Award in the All American Trials, 1935, and the Mark of Approval of the Manitoba Market Growers' Association on inspection of our Trial Grounds last season. Well grown, it ... ... 8 inches in length, just what the Market wants; is uniformly cylindrical and retains its dark green color, flesh is thick; seed cavity small; flavor excellent. It is early, following the early Pickling sorts in maturity. The most outstanding cucumber developed to date. Originator's stock."

http://www.reimerseeds.com/rutgers-tomato.aspx
73 days. Solanum lycopersicum. Open Pollinated. This early maturing plant produces high yields of 6 to 12 oz bright red tomatoes. They are sweet and flavorful. Perfect for salads, slicing, sandwiches, and canning. It is a cross between a J.T.D. (an old New Jersey variety from the Campbell Soup Company) and a Marglobe. Crack-resistant. An excellent choice for home gardens, market growers, and open field production. An heirloom variety developed in 1934 by the New Jersey Experimental Station, New Brunswick, New Jersey, USA. United States Department of Agriculture, PI 270209. Disease Resistant: V, F, A, St. Determinate.

i like old varieties..be they called heirloom(open pollinated) or whatever term in fashion...i also like a few hybrids..F1's but they are far and few between as it takes time and money..manual labor to produce those seed.if you save seed from any hybrid and grow those seed out..you eventually will get a stable heirloom.anyone that ever says you cant grow out hybrid seed are wrong. you wont get same crop next season meaning you miss the hybrid vigor that come from a F1 cross.one hybrid i miss is the old green comet broccoli. it was a top producer here in my area but markets and such changed and breeders went another direction.i hope to one day see it back in seed catalogs.

p.s. this post was made to educate you...not argue with you....take it as it was intended to be please ! if you dont want to develop new heirlooms thats fine..carry on.

p.p.s. breeders are working on apples for deep south by the way.
 
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elkhound said:
listen real close to my words...these are not being altered through gmo processes. they are just varities being developed through cross breeding then grown out till it become stable to reproducing itself. ALL HEIRLOOMS were hybrids at some point..they were grown out till they became stable...this has been done by farmers for 1000's of years. often from natural cross pollination in the field..nothing more..no gener splicing or any such nonsense. famous heirlooms that were hybrids..rutgers tomatoe..developed by ruters univesity for campbells soup...the famous morgage lifter tomatoe that so famous...read..the use of certain words today people dont understand..heirloom just means its been grown by folks for a long time..take straight e cuke..i spent my whole life around folks growing it and never once i have heard it called an heirloom...but it is an heirloom...this use of heirloom as of late is often used as a catchy marketing phrase...if its not a F1,F2 or F3 hybrid and says that..its a variety that you can save seed from and regrow. read bolded text below

http://www.reimerseeds.com/mortgage-lifter-tomato.aspx
85 days. Solanum lycopersicum. Open Pollinated. The plant produces heavy yields of 1 to 2 lb pink beefsteak tomatoes. They are very sweet, meaty, juicy, and flavorful. It has a rich tomato flavor. Perfect for salads, slicing, and sandwiches. This variety was developed in the 1930s by Mr. Byles of Logan, WV to help pay off his home mortgage. He was able to pay off his $6,000 mortgage in 6 years by selling the plants for $1 each. He crossed a German Johnson, a Beefsteak, and an Italian & English variety to come up with this unique variety. An excellent choice for home gardens. A family heirloom variety from Logan, West Virginia, USA. United States Department of Agriculture, PI 647467. Disease Resistant: V, F, N. Indeterminate.

http://www.reimerseeds.com/straight-eight-cucumbers.aspx1935 All-America Selections Winner!

63 days. Cucumis sativus. Open Pollinated. Plant produces high yields of 8" long dark green cucumbers. One of the best slicing cucumber on the market. It is an extremely dependable producing crop. If you had bad luck with other cucumber varieties last season, then this one this year. You will be giving them away to your family, neighbors, and friends there are so many! Grows best if grown on trellis or stakes. Excellent choice for home gardens and market growers. A 1938 heirloom variety named for its perfectly straight 8" long cucumber. United States Department of Agriculture, NSL 5764. Disease Resistant: CMV.

read more here ferry morse bred it up and released it in 35.

https://sustainableseedco.com/products/straight-eight-cucumber?variant=3172024811560
Straight Eight Cucumber was introduced by Ferry Morse in 1935

Straight 8's are extremely dependable at producing a crop. Bad luck with other cucumbers last season, then this is the one to try this year. Eight inches of perfect straight cucumber slicing excellence! You'll be giving them away to the neighbors there are so many!

1937 MacFayden Seed Co. catalog says Straight Eight Cucumber seeds...
"A real forward step in Cucumbers. Received the Gold Medal Award in the All American Trials, 1935, and the Mark of Approval of the Manitoba Market Growers' Association on inspection of our Trial Grounds last season. Well grown, it ... ... 8 inches in length, just what the Market wants; is uniformly cylindrical and retains its dark green color, flesh is thick; seed cavity small; flavor excellent. It is early, following the early Pickling sorts in maturity. The most outstanding cucumber developed to date. Originator's stock."

http://www.reimerseeds.com/rutgers-tomato.aspx
73 days. Solanum lycopersicum. Open Pollinated. This early maturing plant produces high yields of 6 to 12 oz bright red tomatoes. They are sweet and flavorful. Perfect for salads, slicing, sandwiches, and canning. It is a cross between a J.T.D. (an old New Jersey variety from the Campbell Soup Company) and a Marglobe. Crack-resistant. An excellent choice for home gardens, market growers, and open field production. An heirloom variety developed in 1934 by the New Jersey Experimental Station, New Brunswick, New Jersey, USA. United States Department of Agriculture, PI 270209. Disease Resistant: V, F, A, St. Determinate.

i like old varieties..be they called heirloom or whatever term in fashion...i also like a few hybrids..F1's but they are far and few between as it takes time and money..manual labor to produce those seed.if you save seed from any hybrid and grow those seed out..you eventually will get a stable heirloom.anyone that ever says you cant grow out hybrid seed are wrong. you wont get same crop next season meaning you miss the hybrid vigor that come from a F1 cross.one hybrid i miss is the old green comet broccoli. it was a top producer here in my area but markets and such changed and breeders went another direction.i hope to one day see it back in seed catalogs.
Click to expand...

I understand that majority of heirlooms were improved but not sure they need much more tampering with. Most are already in danger from cross breeding of GMO crops planted nearby.
 
thinking about varieties..dont know who may or may not know this...apple trees and i assume other fruit..but you know how that goes...lol...can produce what is called a 'sport' on it..its a limb that for whatever reason appears and its a different variety or altered type from what tree is...NO this is not a grafted limb....it does some kind of weird change and its totally different from rest of tree.theres varieties out there that came from sport limbs appearing in orchards and the fruit developed and being different and having good qualities grafted it on to root stock to grow full trees of it. very few people today even heard of this...we have lost so much from lack f a true agrarian lifestyle and being on the land 24/7/365 and knowledge being passed down from generation to generation.

back in 1700 and 1800 you often seed seed stock with family names were it was developed by families on their farms. one item is the old stowells evergreen corn variety that still with us. you can look it up.
 
Meerkat said:
I understand that majority of heirlooms were improved but not sure they need much more tampering with. Most are already in danger from cross breeding of GMO crops planted nearby.
Click to expand...

if plants dont adapt to changing climate we will lose them. its why even just one generation you grow in your own backyard garden its specifically adapted to your backyard garden.


gmo...i dont like them one bit..but there are very few gmo items as of late...corn being main one...like i said times are changing as well as what people want to spend money on..its the reason i stated above these places are developing heirloom varieties for organic markets...peoples dollars in retail are driving this.

a prime example of an individual breeding up a new variety is dave christiansen and his painted mtn corn for cold and windy montana area.

p.s. theres a professor in canada cross bred a corn and stabilized it for far north growers. its a dent type corn and it matures in 60 days. he developed it for farmers to have an alternative crop to traditional items they are growing but farmers didnt really like the idea of it and it didnt really take off like they had hoped for to diversify growers crops. he developed something else too..but i forget right now what it was.
 
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elkhound said:
thinking about varieties..dont know who may or may not know this...apple trees and i assume other fruit..but you know how that goes...lol...can produce what is called a 'sport' on it..its a limb that for whatever reason appears and its a different variety or altered type from what tree is...NO this is not a grafted limb....it does some kind of weird change and its totally different from rest of tree.theres varieties out there that came from sport limbs appearing in orchards and the fruit developed and being different and having good qualities grafted it on to root stock to grow full trees of it. very few people today even heard of this...we have lost so much from lack f a true agrarian lifestyle and being on the land 24/7/365 and knowledge being passed down from generation to generation.

back in 1700 and 1800 you often seed seed stock with family names were it was developed by families on their farms. one item is the old stowells evergreen corn variety that still with us. you can look it up.
Click to expand...
I have stowels evergreen in my seed collection but I prefer Country Gentleman another heirloom.

Grafting is another skill I want to acquire. I have 3 dwarf apple trees in my front yard. They are disappointing producing little or very small fruit.

I planted them when I was much more of a novice than I am now. I did not know that I was to be confronted with a never ending war with Bambi. Looking back I suspect the deer had damaged the graft and what had grown up were the dwarf crab apple root stock.

They are healthy trees but again the fruit they bare is lame.

Last year The Princess brought home 16 bare root apple trees that have been growing in the backyard nursery. I plan to take cuttings from those trees and graft them onto the lame dwarfs in hopes of getting good fruit from them.

Ben
 
Neb said:
I have stowels evergreen in my seed collection but I prefer Country Gentleman another heirloom.

Grafting is another skill I want to acquire. I have 3 dwarf apple trees in my front yard. They are disappointing producing little or very small fruit.

I planted them when I was much more of a novice than I am now. I did not know that I was to be confronted with a never ending war with Bambi. Looking back I suspect the deer had damaged the graft and what had grown up were the dwarf crab apple root stock.

They are healthy trees but again the fruit they bare is lame.

Last year The Princess brought home 16 bare root apple trees that have been growing in the backyard nursery. I plan to take cuttings from those trees and graft them onto the lame dwarfs in hopes of getting good fruit from them.

Ben
Click to expand...

rework your trees and turn them into frankentrees...a term coined by steven edholm/skillcult. he has a tree that has over 150 varieties on it.

you still have time to get orders in for scion from fedco...and others i am sure.

https://www.fedcoseeds.com/trees/scionwood
 
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Terri9630 said:
Where would I find info on this? That would be perfect for my location.
Click to expand...

it has native corn from your area in it even..it has something like 70 indian corn in it..so its a F70 type..hes been working on it fir years...40plus in fact. he also has another corn thats black but i am yet to find it. i grew the painted mtn last year and its not for here. we get to much rain i think it needs a tougher enviroment to grow in. also this is a flour corn and according to carol deppe eastern indians grew very little flour corn. i planted a dozen r so seed in heat and dry of summer and it done much better but i was not pleased with it. my opinion and its limited...its needs more refining...at least to be in the east. theres way better corn for east. also carol deppe bought this corn over 10 years ago and used it her breeding program to get a better corn and one not as mixed up. lots of folks want to put PMC genes in their corn they are breeding. as for me...i have a old corn i growing and i may offer it one day called shangri-la purple. its purple and ivory kernels.its not white..its ivory as its almost translucent on much of bottom part of kernel.you can get it lots of places like fedco..but if i was you i would get it from somewhere out west to get it more acclimated for you.i tried eating a few ears for sweet corn but its only so so at best and has a very narrow window for that from what i saw.
 
theres a guy on hopi reservation breeding up his tribes corn thats been handed down too you might try and theres a place in south america...it is a data base of heirloom corn thats non gmo like the seed bank in frozen north across the big pond. it has something crazy like 20 or 25,000 cultivars. it will take me awhile to recall this info.
 
i would write this guy a letter and see if i could get a start of corn. i know they grow various corns,dent,flour and sweet. michael kotutwa johnson all can say is no or trash your letter.

 
another source i mentioned is open source seed started by carol deppe. here it is.

https://osseeds.org/
also theres josph lofthouse how is developing items for southwest type area.he uses a term many dont use today. landrace...if you hear a person use that term they grew up around old folks or might be old folks.theres landrace varieties of everything from plants to critters.


http://garden.lofthouse.com/
 
biggest complaint i have with corn..brace roots...since 2012 or 2013 the winds here blow fierce and all crops get blown over..i hear folks say hill it up higher...bologna...hilling wont help..it needs brace roots to stabilize it better and more. the PMC was about same as rest..it fell over..if it wont stand on its own why bother? in a survival situation you need the hardest you can get. my shangri-la purple stood high winds.in fact its anchored so well...yes i was testing it often...you could pull on it sideways and it snap back like a tuning fork !
 
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Today I started setting up my seed starter area, I can sit 4 large trays in the space with 4 heating mats so that would be someplace between 72 and 200 plants depending on which inserts I use...

I transplanted some of my cabbage, I had been growing 3 plants per 30" long containers and the center plants were being totally covered by the end plants, so I removed all the center plants, put a couple in one of the raised beds and placed a couple in the 2 gallon growing buckets that I made with a drip trays, they will now reside in my high bay space. Because all the plants started at the same place, this will tell me if I can transplant cabbage into the raised beds 2 months early, if they grow better in single plant buckets, or if the 2 plants per 30" container is the best way to go.... I felt a little guilty as I planted the one in the raised bed knowing that it will snow tonight.... But hey, it's a science experiment and learning what I can get away with is useful information to me....
 
after posting about seeds and hybrids and such the other day with me telling how you can save seed from hybrids but its a gamble and you would need to keep growing it out to stabilize it...well danny and wanda at deep south homestead put out a video talking and showing this exact thing..they let seedling from dropped celebrity tomatoes last sprout in the greenhouse so they just let them grow out...watch video to see results...this right here is danny start of having a tomato that 'custom bred' for his site and situation. i hope he continues to grow these out...not bad for feb 1st harvest(4min vid)

 
Garlic after sitting under 6 inches of snow last 10 days or so

P1000034.JPG
 
Tonight I planted some seed starter pots, got 50 planted. Tried to just do the ones that had trouble sprouting during the winter garden exercise.... I started making a list of all the seeds that I have based on my receipts from 2016 forward, looks like about 140 varieties. I don't expect to be able to use all of them, but I do have choices.
 
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